S8 Ep 10 Transcription

S8 E10 | Dear NICU Mama Podcast: C-section Roundtable Pt 2

Ashley & Aisha: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Dear NICU Mama Podcast. This podcast is a safe place to connect with other NICU moms by listening to interviews with trauma informed medical and maternal mental health experts, remarkable stories from the NICU, and intentional roundtable conversations. Our hope is that you feel like you're sitting across the table from another NICU sister and feel seen and validated in your experience.

Ashley & Aisha: No matter where you are on your healing journey, this podcast is here to remind you that you are not alone. Welcome to the Sisterhood. 

Aisha: Hello, mamas. And welcome back to the podcast today. We're listening to part two of the C-section round table. 

Aisha: So if you haven't heard part one, I highly encourage you. Go back and start there. Today we are taking off right where we left off last week. And we hope that as we continue this conversation, you continue to feel encouraged and seen and validated in your [00:01:00] C-section journey and experience. We love you and enjoy.

Aisha: You guys kind of started talking a little bit about it of just like what you wish you knew about Caesareans.

Aisha: Um, is there anything that comes up to mind to you? Like what's something that I really wish I would have known. Um, like for me, for example, I didn't realize how much shaking. Was involved because of the anesthesia. And, um, I just remember laying on the table, my arms spread, um, like wide and just like literally shaking so hard and looking around.

Aisha: Like, is this normal? What is happening? Andy was like, is she okay? Like, why is she shaking so much? This was Enzo. Yeah. Mm hmm. So that's like one of the things that I remember from, um, giving, yeah, in the cesarean with Enzo was just like after they had like given me the anesthesia, [00:02:00] um, but the, what is that?

Aisha: The, the shot in your pants. Yeah, which is also like all that I did by myself, Andy hadn't like gotten in just, you do feel kind of scared and just like in this like very sterile room and they're like, okay, bend forward. And you're just like, what's happening? Um, but yeah, the shaking was something that caught me off guard for sure.

Aisha: I had no idea that that was a side effect. 

Ashley: Yeah.

Kristen: Yeah, I, I wish I knew how much you actually still do feel, even though, um, you are numb. I, honestly, in my brain, I just assumed you didn't feel anything. I didn't account for pressure. Um, that was the most shocking. I kept saying, ow, during surgery because I just couldn't process what other But it wasn't pain, but it, I, so I just kept looking at it and I just kept saying, ow, ow, ow, because I just couldn't figure out what [00:03:00] it was.

Kristen: But the fact that you could still semi feel what's going on, um, was just the craziest thing and the most mind blowing thing to me. It,

Kristen: it honestly rocked my socks. Yeah.

Lindsay: It's so interesting hearing you say that because that's what mine was too is I was like, Oh, I'm going to get in and I won't feel a thing because they kept saying that to me too. They're like, don't worry, you won't feel a thing because I also 

Ashley: Oh gosh! 

Lindsay: So I was like, Oh, okay. Okay.

Lindsay: They're like, you won't feel a thing. It'll be okay. And so I felt the same where it was like, they were like tugging and I was like, they're like, what are they doing? And like, I don't know what. You have the sheet up, thank goodness, but like, you can't see what they're doing, and so it's just that really weird sensation of like,

Lindsay: am I 

Aisha: inside of 

Lindsay: Yeah.

Lindsay: like how does that, how can you feel? Because like you could, you could feel like people's hands where there should not 

Kristen: yeah, yeah.

Kristen: It's,

Kristen: honestly the weirdest [00:04:00] feeling, yeah. And being able to see them,

Kristen: like, over. Like, I had a particularly tall doctor who I could see over. So it's like, and like, on the mag, trying to piece it together, that like, their hands are what you're

Lindsay: yeah, because like they'd move, like you could see their shoulder move, and then you'd feel a sensation, and it was like. Uh, it was like almost that like movie alien kind of experience of

Lindsay: like, I can't, like, I, I don't know what's happening.

Aisha: Mm hmm.

Lindsay: but yeah, that's 

Kristen: To this day, that's still what

Lindsay: oh, yeah, that, like, I just got shivers 

Kristen: Goosebumps. Goosebumps. Literally just, like, thinking about, like, that

Kristen: moment, like, gives me goosebumps. 

Lindsay: that's something you can't describe to other people.

Lindsay: Like, if you haven't experienced what that sensation is, it's like, I, I don't know. I'm, I'm very hopeful that I don't feel that again.

Lindsay: Um, but, uh, 

Aisha: me feel like the person who said that you weren't going to feel anything has never.

Lindsay: no,

Lindsay: [00:05:00] no. no. 

Kristen: had a c section. 

Lindsay: had not

Lindsay: had a c-section before

Ashley: That tracks.

Aisha: Of 

Kristen: There we go.

Ashley: Oh.

Ashley: man. I never even. Oof. Yeah. Well, and for me, I, I, think what surprised me most was the gas panes.

Aisha: Mm hmm.

Ashley: After

Kristen: in the shoulders the gas pains in the shoulders because I kept I kept telling the nurse after in the recovery I was like my shoulders hurt. She's like, yeah, that's gas. I'm like, you're not hearing me my shoulders and she's like it's gas I'm like Yeah,

Ashley: they were talking to like, I was[00:06:00] 

Aisha: Like, they're gaslighting you? 

Ashley: gas pains in my shoulders?

Ashley: But

Aisha: Yeah, that's crazy.

Ashley: we should talk a little bit about

Ashley: recovery for like a second because, whew, that

Kristen: that was a time.

Ashley: I mean, I haven't had a vaginal delivery. So like, again, nothing to compare it to, but that experience of recovery was like, I've never experienced pain like that. Like I, I literally was like, will I ever be able to like move again?

Ashley: Like that first time you have to, when they want to weigh you and they want you to stand,

Lindsay: Uhhuh.

Ashley: I was like, you've got to move. Gotta be kidding me. And they're like, you actually have to. And I was like, that is not going to happen.

Ashley: It's literally not going to happen. I mean, it was like, and even when you're discharged, I was like, can I wear a seatbelt?

Ashley: Like that can't, like, this is going to open any

Ashley: time. Right. I just, it felt [00:07:00] so wrong. I don't

Aisha: Well, the amount of things that I feel like Andy just was a rockstar cause there was, there were things that I'm sure he never expected to have to help me with that he was all of a sudden having to help me with. And we now can like look back and he'll be like, yeah, I didn't expect I'd be changing two persons diapers, but there I was.

Aisha: Um, and it's, yeah, it, it's. Absolutely wild.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Kristen: Recovery was a time. It was like, so. Interesting. And then factor in when you're discharged. I don't know about your guys hospitals. Our parking garage was across the street.

Kristen: And so it was like not, and the, the get to get in front, it's, I mean, Boston hospital, it's a major hospital. So trying [00:08:00] to get in and out was not doable.

Kristen: So I couldn't get dropped off. So you need to factor in like walking and or hoping a wheelchair is there. And it was definitely, um, really, And I think I severely underestimated what the recovery was going to be like for me once I got, like, back on my feet. I don't think I had any perception that it was gonna take me as long as it would, um, or as long as it did. And I think that was really hard for me. I think I put a lot of pressure on myself to try to get back to what I thought normal was because I thought I needed to be back

Kristen: immediately so Isla could have two functioning parents.

Lindsay: Yeah. I think for me, because of the way that my scar was positioned, um, that was the thing that took me most by surprise, was how much Because it was literally from my pelvis [00:09:00] to my belly button, um, I couldn't wear a seat belt. Um, I couldn't wear pants with buttons or zippers or anything because the scar is exactly right where those go. Um, and so I think that was, part of it was like, it, you never knew when it was gonna like, hurt. And so like, the thing that, my recovery ended up taking a lot longer. than what even the doctors had thought. And it was like, well, you know, this isn't a very common kind of c section. And so, you know, the advice that we give isn't always necessarily, um, going to work for everyone, was kind of the attitude of it.

Lindsay: And like, just find what works for you. I'm like, well, what When it doesn't work, it hurts really bad. like, that's, that's a interesting thing. And the best advice they would give me, for example, was because of the way that seatbelts [00:10:00] were and because of the pressure of the seatbelt, they were like, well, maybe it's best if you guys don't, if you just avoid the car.

Lindsay: I'm like, well, my baby's in the NICU.

Lindsay: So like, I'm not going to be able to avoid the car, but like, you know, that's, that's. It's, I think that there's sometimes a disconnect between the advice that you're given as you're recovering and what's feasible. And then it does encourage you to push, you know, a little harder and be like, well, I guess I've got to suck it up and make it, make it happen.

Lindsay: And you know, it's, it's, I don't know, it's such a learning curve anyway to be a new mom and then to be a NICU mom, and then to 

Ashley: Mm hmm. 

Lindsay: Healing while being a NICU mom. Um, and it's, I don't know, it's, yeah, it's a weird, it's a, it's a really challenging, um, experience.

Kristen: Yeah, I [00:11:00] struggled a lot with getting up and down after having my C section. I would say that was like the hardest thing for me.

Ashley: Mm hmm. 

Kristen: Um, so it was always really difficult, like when we would be there to visit, to get up to help with care times, or to get up to Do anything with her. I felt so stuck. I felt like I couldn't because they'd be like, Oh no, mom, don't worry.

Kristen: Like we'll do it. And like, so badly I want, but like, I want 

Ashley: Mm hmm. 

Kristen: I know, I know that you can do it, but like, I want to do it. And like, that was the hardest part for me was knowing that like, they're not saying that they can do it because they, they get because they want me to rest. They want me to heal.

Kristen: They want me to take that time for me because that's just as important. Um, but it didn't make it any easier.

Kristen: It was super difficult to feel like I was so stuck in the corner on the couch or in the chair and that I couldn't get up and down.

Ashley: Right. Mm.

Kristen: was the toughest thing for me.

Aisha: And for me, I think something that I [00:12:00] struggled with a lot was Again, feeling like I didn't want to take any of the like pain meds that they, um, provided. I like, there was a part of me that wanted to just kind of prove that like, no, like I'm, I'm tough. I can do this. Like, I'm gonna, I don't need anything else.

Aisha: And it, Also kind of if I really like after a lot of therapy was able to kind of like part of me was also like Punishing is like a very strong word but there was a part of me that wanted to feel the pain because I was so numb in other areas in that Experience that the pain that I was feeling was what was keeping me like Present in a way like this all is happening.

Aisha: This is real

Ashley: hmm,

Aisha: So like, I had this very strange relationship with the recovery because as long as I was feeling the pain of it, it was [00:13:00] validating in a way, like my whole experience. And, um, so that was very difficult to like navigate as well because, um, and I think in a way it made the healing process last long, like, Be longer than it should have because I was kind of stuck in this like, as long as I'm feeling pain, I'm feeling something.

Ashley: Hmm, yeah, 

Kristen: It's really interesting. You talked about, like, the medication and stuff, because I did the same thing. It took a couple days of, like, coaxing from my husband before I, like, really started to take the medication and, like, allow myself to, um, accept that I needed the

Kristen: help. Um, there's, you know, I was like, oh no, I can manage it.

Kristen: I can manage it. I can do this. Like, it's fine. It's nothing compared to what she's going through. I'll be fine. And I just really wanted to put on that brave face And just like, you know, that stiff upper lip, everything's okay. And it took [00:14:00] days of, Brian, just please take this. You're not less than for taking the medication.

Kristen: Like, you, you are a fantastic mother because you're taking this medication. And, you know, eventually like it just got unbearable. And, and I was like, you're right. I'm torturing myself because I feel like I deserve

Kristen: this. And I don't, what Isla deserves is a mother who's able to function and, and be present and be there and not just be like, Oh, thank God I'm not in

Kristen: pain. I can sit. Like she deserves that. And I deserved

Aisha: Mm-Hmm. . 

Lindsay: Hmm. 

Aisha: Yeah.

Ashley: silly. Well, and I wonder if we could talk a little bit about um, First of all, thank you guys for sharing all of that so vulnerably. I think it's really important to shed light on that because looking back, it's so easy to look back and be like, why didn't, you know, Oh, just take the money,

Ashley: you know, take it.

Ashley: Like why didn't we take it? But then you do that digging and you're like, oh, it was because I was trying [00:15:00] to like be fully there.

Lindsay: Hmm.

Ashley: for everything that we were walking through, because like we talked about moments before, we had no control before and we're trying to gain just a little bit of it in this like situation that is, is so out of our control.

Ashley: And so I appreciate you guys sharing that because it's so important to shed light on that. Um, and I wonder if we could talk a little bit about, because I think again, if it's not something that you were anticipating, this D section scar can be kind of alarming. Um, and. All of us just uniquely had premature deliveries.

Ashley: Um, and so I think there is also this, um, I don't know, not to go like super deep, but I think as pre me NICU mamas, there's not a lot of physical evidence that we carried a child. We don't often have the stre like the significant stretch marks that maybe you would have with a full term baby. Um, and so, um, I [00:16:00] remember looking at my body and it feeling like the scar looked so out of place because like I assumed that a scar like that would go along with

Ashley: The stretch marks and the sagging belly and different things are,

Ashley: you know, and it just was really alarming for me.

Ashley: Um, and it took me a really long time to look at, at it. Like it was something that even like when the nurses would do dressing changes or check on it, I would just kind of

Aisha: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . 

Ashley: and I was just kind of like, Oh yeah, that grad, it looks good. I'm uninterested in looking at this because it was just like this raw reminder of what just happened.

Kristen: Um, And then when I did look at it, I was really surprised at how low it was. I don't know if you guys were like surprised at that, but I was like, oh, I assumed it was my belly button, but it's like lower than my underwear line. But like, I just, I don't know. It just was very, it took me a really long time [00:17:00] to even look at it fully. And, um, so I'd love to know from you guys, like, what was your experience when you first saw your C section scar? And, you know, did it take you by surprise? Or, you know, what was your journey with that? So with my scar, I was terrified for the first dressing change. I would say of like my whole postpartum experience, that was the part that scared me the most. 

Kristen: I was so anxious about knowing like, okay, it's day two. That means tomorrow they're going to take, you know, I was so scared because I was so scared to see what the scar looked like.

Kristen: And I think similarly to you, Ashley, I didn't look at my scar for the longest time. I wouldn't look at myself in the mirror.

Kristen: I felt a lot of shame and I didn't like what was happening to my body. I didn't like the way that I looked. The things were going and I felt a lot of shame about it and it took a lot of, you know, Girls night out with Dear [00:18:00] NICU mama.

Kristen: It took a lot of listening to the podcast. It took a lot of talking with my friends who had full term deliveries and friends of mine who I made in the NICU to really just realize that like my scar is my story and my story is beautiful and my My, my story's worth telling. And,

Kristen: you know, I don't have

Kristen: those tiger stripes that people lovingly have and refer to. But I've got something just as good. And I've 

Kristen: got something just as cool. And I think over two years, because we just celebrated, you know, Isla's second birthday, I think now, two years out, like, I love my scar. And I love to wear my scar. And I feel very proud of it.

Kristen: of my scar, and I'm very proud to be a C section mom and a preemie mom.

Ashley: Mm hmm. 

Kristen: Um, and you know, if this is the reminder that I get to wear every day, then like I'm, I'm happy with

Kristen: that. 

Ashley: Yeah.

Aisha: so beautiful.

Lindsay: Hmm. I think for [00:19:00] me, um, my relationship with it was really complicated, um, because it was so much bigger than I expected. I think that was part of it was that I'd seen my mom's C section scar. And so I was like, okay, like it's, it's dainty. It's not, you know, it's not something like she was full term. So like, you know, this, mine's going to be even smaller.

Lindsay: And so I think for me, the shock of when they like got me into my room and got me back into bed and I looked down and my entire abdomen was like covered and like, you could see the stitches through the,

Lindsay: um, the like gauze and like. I felt like Frankenstein, like if I was being honest, like

Lindsay: it felt like, oh my gosh, I didn't even know how to process

Lindsay: it.

Lindsay: And so I did something similar that you all described where like the pain of it almost felt like, [00:20:00] like, I don't know. It was this almost, um. bitter kind of like, well, that's what you get. Like, that's what happens. And for me, that, that ended up being something that I wish looking back now, I would have had a more tender relationship with because it ended up being a sign.

Lindsay: I ended up having complications after my C section and I ignored it for a good two years because It was like, well, you're just in pain now. Like, this is just 

Ashley: Mm 

Lindsay: now. And like, this is just normal. Um, and this is what happens. Because again, I'd, I'd come into a C section with a mindset that was probably not the most conducive to being open and being in this more healing space.

Lindsay: I'd come into it with this like, no, like I was going to have a water birth. I [00:21:00] was going to have this very specific birth. And so it felt like a punishment. It felt like

Lindsay: this is the universe punishing me for not doing what I was supposed to do. And so it was a, it was a long journey. It was a probably four year journey for me of accepting it and being able to look at it.

Lindsay: And honestly, um, I ended up having a surgery last January that was the most heartbreaking surgery I could have had, but it also was the most healing because it was the first time I wasn't in pain since Sloan was born. And so it was this moment of like, like this is what it's supposed to feel like.

Lindsay: Like this is what my body is supposed to feel like. Like, I don't. It was almost like the universe granting me permission not to punish anymore, to be able to say like, Oh, okay. Like we can move forward now. Like this isn't, I don't have to live in this same space all the time. And so I think that [00:22:00] would be the biggest thing I would say to moms who've had a C section is you still listen to your body, like still listen.

Lindsay: Like I know it can be hard. And if you've,

Lindsay: if you come into it in a place where you're like, It's, it's the easiest scapegoat sometimes is your body and it's easy to otherize it and it's easy to say like, well, I'm me and this is that and I'm, you know, it, it, it's, it's its own thing.

Lindsay: Um, but continue to listen and continue to, to connect with your body in the ways that you can and feel compassion for it because, um, I wish, I wish that I had done that sooner and been in that place sooner, because even though the journey was really hard, the other side is so much different and so much better. Um, and so much healthier. And now I feel like I can model for my daughter. [00:23:00] Like this is what it means to like, feel good about your body. And now I can look at my scar and be like, Okay. Like, you know, this is a really, my, um, she, my daughter likes to look at it now and likes to be like, you know, she's, she's fascinated by it.

Lindsay: And so it's, it's a really, um, I don't know, it's, it's a very different place now than it was,

Lindsay: um, a year ago, two years ago. Um, and so, so yeah, I hope that. NICU mamas who may be early on that C section journey know that like, it is a journey. And you do get to a place where, even if, Things don't go the way you want, even if you have complications, even if it feels like this thing just keeps butting its head up into your life when you don't want it there anymore. Um, it does, it does get better and it does get to a, it does get to a good place and it's just, you have to be [00:24:00] compassionate to yourself as you get there. Um, it makes it a lot easier to be nice to yourself versus critical.

Ashley: yeah,

Aisha: Thank you so much for sharing that. And that is such a beautiful reminder to listen to our bodies and, and to not give up on our bodies. And that's, I mean, that was beautiful. Thank you. Yeah.

Ashley: you bring up a really important point of just this factor of time. And it's kind of been a recurring theme throughout this episode where, um, sometimes, um, In an effort to unintentionally or intentionally either punish ourselves or quote, should ourselves, or tell ourselves we should just be moved on, figure it out.

Ashley: Your baby's in more pain, you know, like, and, but there's this [00:25:00] reality that like, time is. It's like, Oh, I wish I could speed this up. This is so dumb. I'd rather just like be fully physically present for my baby and at the same time can be like one of the greatest gifts of just like, whoa, like you are worthy and deserving of the time it takes to heal.

Ashley: We say that all the time in Dear NICU mama is that you are worthy of that care. You are worthy of that time. And. I think there's also this really beautiful gift of just, you know, even admitting out loud to yourself, like, I'm not there yet. And that's okay. I will be, but today I'm not there and I'm not going to should myself anymore to being there. And it may be a four year process. It may be a one year process. It may be a six year process or plus, you know, but just giving yourself that permission to say, I'm not there yet, but I will be. And giving [00:26:00] yourself that care and that hope that even though I'm not where I want to be, one day I will be. And one day I'll be able to show my son or daughter their scar and it's gonna be the coolest thing ever. And you know, um, but it's okay if you're not there yet. And

Ashley: time It can sometimes be the biggest gift on our healing journey because it just forces us to really, like, live in that moment, in that sacred, sacred time. Thank you guys so much for sharing that. So beautiful. And I feel very similarly now. I know when I mentioned initially, like, that first was just shock and, um, grief that I wasn't pregnant, but I think now as similarly to you guys, it is my, my proudest battle scar ever. And I'm so grateful I have this physical reminder of just what we've gone through and you know, I'm just incredibly proud of it. 

Aisha: [00:27:00] and it can. It can also be to our lost mamas. It can also be one of the, you know, we don't have a lot of things that. We can have as reminders of our babies that are earthside, but I look at my scar and you can actually see where Enzo's scar is and where Ava's scar is. And, and Enzo's scar 

Aisha: it's, 

Ashley: Mm

Kristen: Dear 

Aisha: that helps me just feel close to him sometimes when I need something physical to like feel close to him. And so, um, it wasn't always, um, so harmonious. Sometimes like there's a love, hate relationship with it, but, um, you know, my hope is for any lost mama who is seeking anything to like hold on to their babies.

Aisha: Um, that scar can be that for you, um,

Ashley: Mm.

Aisha: when your heart is ready.

Ashley: Yeah. [00:28:00] That's so beautiful. Isha. Mm mm-Hmm.

Kristen: like for me, I just, I hope any C section mom, full term, pre me, lost mama, I just hope every. One knows that like your scar doesn't define who you are as a mother or as a person.

Kristen: It doesn't take away from who you are as a mother or a person. I really let my scar define who I was and made me let myself feel inferior and less than because of it. And I just hope that you know that like you're a warrior and you are not less than as a mother or a person and your scar is part of your armor and part of what makes you so beautifully unique in you.

Ashley: Well, maybe as we close, I mean, that could be the

Aisha: Mm hmm.

Ashley: do want to leave it open if anybody has any last just kind of [00:29:00] encouragements or um, comments.

Ashley: I think one other important theme that we've heard throughout this episode is the importance of therapy. I think all of us have mentioned that a couple of times, multiple times, um, in that you don't have to, this healing doesn't magically happen. Um, in fact, sometimes it takes, oftentimes it takes immense amounts of courageous effort to get there. And, um, but that again, you are worthy of that care and of that time and of that safe place to process these really difficult things. Um, we talked about blocking things out. We talked about, um, not being able to look at the scar. We talked about, um, just, um, Wanting to feel pain because that felt safe. And these are all significant things that a licensed professional can really help us walk through because where do we go from there, right?

Ashley: Like,

Ashley: and so [00:30:00] having that safe person to really carefully and gently walk through with you can be the greatest gift to yourself and you are so worthy of it. And um, we'll link it in the show notes, but PSI, Postpartum Support International has a whole index library of licensed maternal mental health specialists.

Ashley: So these are specialists that work in the field of maternal mental health. And so, um, oftentimes they can, there's an index of a provider who understands the tenderness of this. Um, And so we'll link that in the show notes too. But it's a really big thing to process without that gentle support. And so, um, You're worthy of that, and we highly encourage you to just maybe take that brave step to even just looking at that index.

Ashley: Even if you don't make the appointment right away, even if you don't schedule that appointment right away, just taking that little brave step, or big brave step, I should rephrase

Lindsay: ha.

Ashley: of just like asking yourself, what would it look like to process this with someone [00:31:00] else and to receive that care? And so that would be my, um, Kind of final encouragement.

Lindsay: Yeah, for sure.

Ashley: Well, friends, this was so beautiful and tender. And I always just feel so much closer to all of you after these episodes. And I just consider it such an honor. To know all of you and to know these details of your story and just so grateful that you are so vulnerable with this community.

Ashley: I know that I have healed and grown because of your vulnerability and seeing, um, just the similarities in our stories just makes me feel more proud of my story. So. Thank you guys for sharing so vulnerably. And to the NICU mamas listening that have had C sections, whether emergent or planned, we just want to remind you, like what Kristen said, you are a warrior mama.

Lindsay: Mm 

Ashley: And if you haven't heard it, you did give birth. Birth was not done to you. You gave birth. It was [00:32:00] never, um, what do they call it? Like plan B. It was never like second best. It was exactly what your baby needed. to come into the world. And so, um, no matter where you are on that healing journey of acceptance, and if you're feeling grief, if you're feeling pride, if you're feeling a mix of all of it, know that you're not alone and you're worthy of the time it takes to heal, both physically and emotionally. If you can't wear a seatbelt for a little bit, that's okay. And if you're having gas pains in your 

Ashley: shoulder,

Aisha: That's a real 

Ashley: you. 

Lindsay: Mm hmm. 

Ashley: You're not alone. 

Lindsay: ha ha 

Ashley: anyways, but we love you mamas. Thank you for always being with us and a part of the Sisterhood and community and we'll be back with you next week. Bye bye.

Ashley & Aisha: Thank you so much for listening to the Dear NICU Mama podcast. If you loved this episode, we'd be so grateful for a review. For more ways to connect with the Dear NICU Mama Sisterhood, check out the links in the episode description.