S7 Ep3 Transcription
Season 7 Ep 3
•• Please note that this is a computer generated transcript and there are potential errors.
Intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Dear NICU Mama podcast! Our mission is to connect the past and the present NICU mom by bringing them out of isolation and into a sisterhood of women who can stand alongside each other as we heal and grow both in and out of the NICU. Our hope is that through interviews with trauma informed medical and maternal mental health experts and vulnerable stories from NICU Mamas themselves, that you would feel connected to the dear NICU mama sisterhood around the world.
Intro: So whether your NICU journey was 50 years ago, or whether you find yourself in the NICU today, we hope that this podcast reminds you that you are not alone.
Martha: Hi, friends, and welcome back to the Dear NICU Mama podcast. It's your hosts, Martha, and
Ashley: Ashley!
Martha: back at it again. Here we are, another day, another dollar, another really bad pumpkin latte to taste.
Ashley: I'm so sorry that that [00:01:00] tasted like grass. That's a bummer.
Martha: You know what? It's my own problem. It's my own problem. Um,
Ashley: Um, I don't know if it's your problem or maybe it's Caribou's problem. Um, not to diss any coffee shops, but if your pumpkin latte is tasting like grass, I think we have issues.
Martha: My, my whole mouth feels like it's covered in a coat. Anyway, we don't need to get into it, but I hope that you're doing well today, Ashley. It's always so good to see your face from afar in the interwebs.
Ashley: You as well. You as well.
Martha: Well, this season, first of all, welcome everybody. It's so good to, to be with you here virtually. , this season we're focusing on life after NICU and that's like a really huge topic because it encompasses.
Martha: everything. It's like the time you're discharged to when your babies are, , you know, 45. So there's so much there to uncover there.
Ashley: It could be like four seasons, five seasons long.
Martha: Yes. Yes. , but we would be remiss if we didn't discuss one of the most important common concerns. I mean, it was the most, one of the biggest concerns for me when we were discharged.
Martha: I'm sure it was for you, Ashley, [00:02:00] because they put like the fear of God into you when you go through discharge is. fever and sickness after NICU, you know, these precious baby you're bringing home. So today we're so grateful to have the opportunity to talk with a specialist and a NICU mom herself, Dr. Jess Daigle from momandme.
Martha: md. Welcome we're so glad that you're here.
Dr. Jess: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited that I came across y'all's platform and I love all the encouraging content that you put out there. It's so amazing.
Ashley: Oh, thank you.
Martha: I was watching some of your YouTube videos recently and I, you call yourself Dr. Jess. So is it okay if we call you Dr. Jess too?
Dr. Jess: Yeah. Yeah. I do that because my, my sister in law's also, her name is also Jessica Daigle. So, so when I came on, um, social media, I was like, well, I need a way so that people are not like, wait a minute. We keep seeing this other Jessica Daigle.
Ashley: I love
Martha: Dr. Jess trademark. We'll go get that trademark. [00:03:00] Um, yes.
Dr. Jess: Thank you. Thank you.
Martha: Dr. Jess, you're a board certified pediatrician. You're a NICU hospitalist. Um, you're the founder of Mom and Me MD, and that it's a really cool program. We'll definitely link everything, um, and all about all of your social media channels and YouTube channel.
Martha: Go check it out. It's all about providing in home and virtual care services for moms and their new babies post NICU. Which is wonderful. Perfect timing for today. and on top of that, you are a NICU parent yourself.
Dr. Jess: I am. I am. Yes,
Ashley: And the day that we're recording this just happens to be a really special day for you.
Dr. Jess: Yes. Yes. It's my NICU baby who was 31 weeks. He turns 10 today.
Ashley: Oh my word
Dr. Jess: Happy birthday Liam!
Ashley: So fun. I can't believe it and he is so handsome and cute whenever you post photos. I'm like, okay He is such a he's
Dr. Jess: those dimples and eyelashes gets you every time.
Ashley: Yes! And his smile. Oh, he's so [00:04:00] cute.
Dr. Jess: Thank you so much. I'm so blessed.
Ashley: love it. I think one of my favorite parts of social media is just getting to connect with people that you wouldn't get to always connect with, right?
Ashley: Like, cause where are you based?
Dr. Jess: I'm in Atlanta, Georgia, like a little bit outside of Atlanta, Georgia proper. And I agree with you for a long time. I wasn't on social media. I used to always be like, well, everybody I know that I need to know. I already know, but
Ashley: Right.
Dr. Jess: not, that's not true. Actually,
Ashley: Yeah.
Martha: Yeah.
Dr. Jess: people, you would, some people, you would never know because you just may not never go to like Utah, for example, like, or something, you know, and, but there could be someone really cool that you can connect with there because of.
Dr. Jess: social media. So it's
Martha: Yeah. For sure.
Ashley: Absolutely. Oh, so fun. Well, cool. Well, can we start a little bit at the beginning? Um, especially on this monumentous day for you, 10 years old. That's a big birthday. Uh, so can we go back to a little bit about your motherhood story and your journey as a NICU mom?[00:05:00]
Dr. Jess: Yeah. Yeah. So actually, when I was in my pediatric residency, I had a miscarriage my intern year going into us in my intern year. And that, for me, really, um, you know, obviously was devastating. Dealt with all the things like mom guilt. I had a like my surface was funneling. So it's just like kind of thinning a little bit from the inside.
Dr. Jess: And so it's basically having some preterm labor and my OB had put me on bedrest. And, you know, thinking back, you're like, what does that mean? Really? Like, don't move ever. Like,
Ashley: Right.
Martha: Yep. Yep.
Dr. Jess: 10 steps, you know, but at the time, you know, after it happened, I thought, Oh, I probably shouldn't have went.
Dr. Jess: to that restaurant, even though I thought I was being very careful and, you know, all the things we do right to make meaning of the situation. And so then, um, I ended up getting pregnant again. And so naturally I was afraid. Um, I was seeing a maternal fetal medicine specialist. And so, uh, the interesting thing about my son though, was at 20 weeks, um, [00:06:00] uh, scan.
Dr. Jess: Um, and that's where that picture, if anyone watches that reel, that first picture of him, the scan is that picture. And that's where he's kind of flexing a little bit.
Martha: Yes. Yep.
Dr. Jess: So my son, my husband was like, Oh, he's letting us know he's going to make it, you know? And, um, so that's why we named him Liam because it means like willful strong and things like that.
Dr. Jess: So we were looking for a name that meant like, you know, like a survivor, like somebody strong. And so, um, but when I started having those same like symptoms again, almost felt like deja vu, right? I told my OB, I was like, this time, if you really want me to bed rest, I need to be in the hospital. Um, so I got admitted at 22 weeks and I was in the hospital for nine weeks on bed rest.
Ashley: Wow.
Dr. Jess: Yes, that is a long time. Like every Monday I cried. Cause I was thankful that I made it another week, but then also just wondering like what was going to really be the outcome, right? And so I had a few scares along the way where they would rush me over to labor and delivery and calm down my contractions and give [00:07:00] me fluids and things like that.
Dr. Jess: And right around 31 weeks, that third time, cause it was like the third time, like they said, third time's the charm. Um, I, I texted her, I said, no, this is real. This time we are having this baby.
Martha: hmm.
Ashley: right?
Dr. Jess: it. I knew he was coming. And so he came in 31 weeks. And, um, you know, all the things like, it's, it's just like a whirlwind.
Dr. Jess: Right. And so it really made me more sensitive now when I'm called to delivery and it's a preterm delivery. I know exactly what these moms are thinking, what they're hoping. Um, that's why I made a real on Tik TOK about what we even do during deliveries, because a lot of people don't even know what's happening over there.
Dr. Jess: They just see. a team of people hovering over their baby and wondering what are they doing? Like, what are they having to do? And then some moms have told me sometimes they haven't even heard from the doctors for like hours, right? Like their babies take them away to the NICU and they don't know what's been happening for hours.
Dr. Jess: And so I'm really sensitive to, I stop if I can, because a lot of times the NICU nurses [00:08:00] and, and support. team can get the baby back to the NICU. I'll go back to the bedside of the family actually and say, Hey, I hopefully I've been able to introduce myself ahead of time. I tried to if there's time, like if they know they're in, they're still dilated, but they know that the delivery is imminent.
Dr. Jess: Then I go and actually explain who I am, what my role is, what we're going to be needed to do for the baby. And then I Okay, repeating that because that is a lot of information to absorb in a short period of time. Um, and so I tell them, I know we're gonna need to repeat a lot of this information and I'm okay doing that.
Dr. Jess: Um, so because of my experience has helped me recognize how important those first few moments and first few days are in talking to a big NICU family. So, you know, I went through all the things with him. He was intubated just to get the surfactant. Um, and so he came off the next day. And he, he did pretty good.
Dr. Jess: He was kind of like it was super preemie in the NICU in regards to respiratory stuff. Um, he had to do a lot of the feeding, growing jaundice treatments. Um, but [00:09:00] don't recall him having too many like apnea, Brady's spells and things like that. But then, I was able to pump and give him breast milk.
Dr. Jess: And so You know, you think, okay, well, we're kind of going along, you know, all the journey and, , I was familiar with that part as a physician that was already have been working in the NICU as well, too. When he came home, though, he ended up having to go back on a feeding tube and that for me was like a such a humongous setback.
Dr. Jess: And I didn't know that how I would respond in that situation. It's interesting because as a professional, I tried to separate. the emotional piece from it, but it's hard to, um, because you, this is your baby now, right? And so you're like, Oh my goodness, is this what families are going through when they feel like their babies have made such, you know, tremendous progress and then feel like, Oh, now we're going two steps back.
Dr. Jess: And, you know, I have, I hear families talk about that, like, okay, we were getting, you know, to eating and now they had to go back on the feeding tube.
Ashley: Yep.
Dr. Jess: We were almost going home and now they [00:10:00] had a Brady cardia or apnea spell. So now they have to be watched for five to seven days, depending on what unit you're in.
Dr. Jess: Right. And so, um, that's, that's kind of my story. And I really had to learn how to, um, deal with the whole mom guilt thing so that I became aware of that because I was going back to finishing my training and even Interviewing for a NICU fellowship. And I was having to leave him at home with other people and teaching them how to read his feeds.
Dr. Jess: And I'm like, Oh my God, I had 9 1 1 scares. You know, people watching him. Like they were, had to call if he had a color change or just anything. And so, it was a lot. It was a
Dr. Jess: lot. Mm hmm.
Martha: Yeah.
Ashley: man.
Martha: And it's so crazy too because there's nothing, there's, um, medical training is like a whole another level. It's not just a full time job, like residency and fellowship are like, take everything from you. So those are long days. And how, um, I mean, wild that [00:11:00] it was your specialty. And so you were going and you were applying for these fellowships and having this very real life experience as a parent and a provider.
Dr. Jess: Yes. I mean, and it's only something I've just recently, you know, begun to think more about as I've transitioned into the work because, you know, like, I think in medicine, we're tend to be type a I'm kind of a relaxed person type a with my training, but otherwise I don't take myself that seriously. But, um, but you're just so trained to go towards the goal.
Dr. Jess: Like this is the goal I've set. And, you know, it takes that focus to get to this level of training and work, right? And so I think I did myself a disservice by not recognizing how traumatic it was. Actually, I didn't really recognize that until I came across years later, someone describing and I was like, it was a type of trauma.
Dr. Jess: Like, why didn't I realize that? Right. And, and so I think that that is something in general, even as others who work in the NICU, like, are they really understanding that this is traumatic for families? Because [00:12:00] We're just so we're trying to get in there, fix the problem, get the things done. Right. But how is this affecting this family and what is happening in their minds and at home in their environments because of this experience.
Dr. Jess: And so that has become a huge passion of mine to make sure that the medical, the socio emotional and mental is not getting lost in the medical piece.
Ashley: Yeah, no, that's beautiful. We need more providers like that.
Dr. Jess: Thank you
Ashley: I think that's beautiful.
Dr. Jess: all. Thank you. Mm
Ashley: So maybe then let's kind of transition into this whole, , life after NICU topic, right? We
Ashley: just talked about how it could be a 10 part series. But I think, you know, one of the elements of that is cold and flu season
Dr. Jess: Mm
Ashley: sickness.
Ashley: And sometimes when you're severely immunocompromised, like many NICU babes are, it doesn't even matter if you're discharged during cold and flu season, you're just more naturally susceptible to illness. And so we're kind of releasing this [00:13:00] episode during like peak cold and flu season. So we wanted to really touch on fevers and just like.
Ashley: illness in general. And I think it's also, I wish, you know, as an NICU parent, I wish there was just like a magic thing we could do to completely eliminate illness, right? And to like bubble ourselves and never get sick. But we know that that's not always the reality. But I hope that with this episode, moms leave with some really tangible.
Ashley: Tools and tips to navigate cold and flu season and also feel really empowered. And I have a feeling that you're going to do that really well, Dr.
Dr. Jess: Well, thank you. I appreciate that.
Ashley: So of course, bringing your baby home is exciting. Like you said, there's also mom guilt and just the process and healing post NICU. But can we talk just a little bit about their little immune systems?
Ashley: You know, like Martha said, we get kind of told all of the scary facts in like a 10 minute time frame and then like a printed out sheet saying, good luck.
Dr. Jess: Yes,
Ashley: So
Dr. Jess: Exactly.
Ashley: You just walk [00:14:00] us through a little bit about maybe even what immunocompromised means and maybe a gentle way we can explain that to the people that we love that maybe don't understand what that means.
Dr. Jess: all babies actually, um, have, , immature immune systems. , so, , we make antibodies and we have sophisticated T cells and all the things that help us manage infection in our body. And so we naturally get some of that from our Moms. Um, so really a lot of what moms exposed to sometimes can prepare a baby's immune system.
Dr. Jess: And so if a baby has been born early, a lot of times they really haven't had the chance to get some of that immunity from their moms to in a way, if you think about it, because a lot of a lot of, you know, that's why we promote even getting to term because you just a lot of stuff is happening in that last trimester, right?
Dr. Jess: Just even in term babies, we're caution folks with, Hey, they have like just passive [00:15:00] immunity and they start doing active immunity around like six months is what we're taught in school, , building up those antibodies, which comes from being exposed. So antibodies are like the soldiers, like I've seen you before.
Dr. Jess: Now I'm prepared to fight. But if you've never seen it before, you're not going to fight as well because you didn't kind of snuck up on you, right? Yeah. So, , people talk about keeping their babies , in a bubble. And while it sounds good in the, in the moment, it really doesn't help long term. , have parents that were bringing the kids in the office and say, I feel like ever since I took him to daycare, they get sick every week.
Martha: Yeah.
Dr. Jess: And I'm like, I'm like, that's true. I said, this is the bright side of that. Like, by the time they in real school where they actually counts against them from missing school, they would have a beefier immune system, right? So while it's a nuisance to have to go pick them up from daycare when they say they have a sickness, , it doesn't count against them.
Dr. Jess: It could be when they're in kindergarten and first grade that you're having to do that, right? So it's really , just because they don't, their bodies haven't. seeing a lot of the infections, [00:16:00] which we'll call, you know, like the things that we're at war with. Right. And so their little soldiers got to get built up.
Dr. Jess: They got to get their military together to be able to fight these infections. And so that's really the gist of it. So all babies start off immunocompromised. They're just even more so because of the earliness of their delivery and also just probably like the fact that they're kind of late to the game and exposure to things.
Dr. Jess: as well.
Ashley: Yeah.
Ashley: So,
Martha: knowing it can be such an anxious time for parents and you kind of alluded to this, you're like our immediate thought was like, if we just protect them from everything and every possible thing of all, you know, nothing comes in or out of our household, we'll be fine. But that's like also impossible, right?
Martha: That's like a part it's yes. And then, um, you know, some people we came home and then. Everyone was like, LOL, would you like a global pandemic? Here you go. Bye.
Dr. Jess: That's true.
Martha: Things happen that we can't prepare for or anticipate in life at all. [00:17:00] Um, and you know, for some families, whether or not you can stay home or screen visitors is a total privilege because maybe you have to go back to work, like care, or you have to stay home.
Martha: There's a limitations one way or the other that maybe be outside of your preferences, right? So knowing that. You know, what are the, these, these like mysterious illnesses that we were talking about and how do you kind of, um, talk about them with your patients and their parents and how do you empower parents to navigate, to feel more confident in navigating them?
Ashley: Mm-hmm.
Martha: and not go down a Google rabbit hole, I should say.
Dr. Jess: I always know that in reality that we're not going to stop people from googling stuff because unfortunately it is a wealth of information. I always tell my families, don't let that be your last stop. You know, if you're curious, like, okay, my kid's coughing.
Dr. Jess: Okay. Let's see what coughs to be. Now it's time to call the pediatrician and say, hey, my kid is coughing. Maybe you've learned a little bit more because you know, a lot of these articles will [00:18:00] say if their cough is like this, if it's been this long, you know, you can provide maybe more of the details that that help us decide what we need to do.
Dr. Jess: So I always like to teach my parents how to think like I think as a doctor. And so, , like When did it start? How long is it? The quality? All of that does matter. Right? Were there surrounding people? Was there contact with someone who was sick? Like, what are the circumstances around the illness? So just fever in itself is 100.
Dr. Jess: 4 degrees Fahrenheit or 38 degrees Celsius. And so sometimes I'll tell the family if your kid feels hot, but they've otherwise been acting normal Then look at the circumstances where they really balled it up in like 30 blankets And then you're like, okay. Well, I was being extra, you know, I was trying to keep my preemie warm in this cold So let me undress them a little bit see if the temperature cools down because a true fever will not typically go away without some type of intervention, right?
Dr. Jess: I always tell people the fever is not bad in the sense. It's more [00:19:00] of an indicator, like my body is fighting something. So it's kind of like a screening thing, like, okay, well, we know it's fighting something. So let's see what that is, right? And so I told him to start there. And then the illnesses, like you said, cold and flu.
Dr. Jess: So there's like so many viruses. I mean, My goodness, like when you go to the, when we order a viral payment hospital is like, I think at least 16 or 18 things on there like RSV, rhinovirus, enterovirus, human metamormal virus, parainfluenza virus, flu. Now we have COVID. It's so many different things. And so I know parents will come to the office and be like, they just told me my kid has a virus and they're mad.
Dr. Jess: But I told them, The reason we say that is because in a lot of cases, the virus itself doesn't really so much matter. It just helps us know the course because we know viral illnesses, they rise about, , three to five days, they peak, and then they tend to kind of come down. But bacterial infections will linger because if you're not treating with the [00:20:00] appropriate antibiotic, then...
Dr. Jess: That's the key. So that's how you kind of can know a difference. So we really will try to screen for bacterial things that we know, like that's why we look in ears, checking throats, checking blood, things like that. Any cultures. Again, that's why the details matter. Like, were they having congestive, snot for like seven or 10 days.
Dr. Jess: Okay. That's more of a true sinusitis and which babies are not supposed to take me to have. be able to have sinusitis, but it would depend on how old your child is, right? This is, you could still be dealing with a one or two year old at this point now that's come home or just, or even a preemie baby that's now into getting into their second birthday.
Dr. Jess: Um, so it's really about trying not to panic. And it's hard to, because that very first illness, You're going to panic. I mean, I cried when my son got a fever and I knew what to do.
Ashley: Right.
Martha: you are like, I am a literal professional. I am an expert in my field. Everybody
Dr. Jess: that went out
Ashley: ha
Dr. Jess: like, are [00:21:00] you serious right now? He was like, I was like, you don't get it. You're not a mama. You're not a mama. You don't get it.
Martha: Oh,
Dr. Jess: So, you know, and I still get upset when they get sick and we're, we're 10 years into this thing. Okay.
Martha: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jess: the point is I just. But I've come to accept that that's just me being a mom and I'm okay with that.
Dr. Jess: I don't make, I don't make it mean anything about me or his experience. This is just me accepting that as a mom, this is how I express my frustration and feelings and stuff, right? So then after that, you say, okay, this sucks. Okay. Now let me pull back. Let me step back and look at all of the factors. Okay.
Dr. Jess: When did this feed, let me take note of the details. That can help me help my child by because when the doctor is going to ask me, I can provide accurate information. Um, and I always tell my family that it does matter if you come to me and say, my child's been vomiting like all day. I want to know what all day means.
Dr. Jess: I don't want you to say that. I want to know like, so 1 a. m. and then like. Two o'clock and then like three o'clock or okay, they vomited twice and then they stop. That gives us [00:22:00] different information versus if they've been repetitively vomiting, if it's shooting across the wall, you know, across the house versus dribbling down their shirt.
Dr. Jess: These things do matter. So I always tell my families I want the details 'cause I'm actually trying to tease out what's really helping you. I don't, but I know a lot of families will do that because a lot of my colleagues sometimes will write people off. They'll assume one thing like they'll say, Oh, the baby's been spitting up and they automatically will say it's reflux instead of getting more details like, okay, so how is this spitting up happening?
Dr. Jess: Like I caught a baby, uh, that had pyloric stenosis that had been to that pediatrician office four times already for reflux.
Dr. Jess: And I was like, so by, by asking the detailed questions, I was like, no, no, no, no, this is not reflux. We need to, or it could be, but I'm not going to assume that without getting an ultrasound.
Dr. Jess: the powers. So teaching families to have the details when they show to the office, gonna show up informed, not emotional but like hey, I got this [00:23:00] information
Ashley: Yeah.
Dr. Jess: Listen to me because I paid attention to the details around my baby.
Ashley: Yeah.
Ashley: Well, first of all, all of those tips were incredibly helpful and I kind of wish I would have had that like printed out for me when I first came home , because it's like you said, , you're coming out of such a fight or flight, especially right away.
Ashley: And the ability to think super logically like that just kind of goes out the window. And so, you know, having those practical steps though is so incredibly helpful. And I want to kind of circle back to something that you said initially, which is mom guilt. And I think for so many of us. You know, we will do anything to protect our babies from anything, right?
Ashley: Like it doesn't matter what it is. And so we hear this recurring theme in our Facebook group. We've said it, I know of like, Oh, I shouldn't have gone to that play date if I just wouldn't have gone to that play date. My son wouldn't have RSV or we wouldn't be sick and we just spiral and we automatically blame ourselves.
Ashley: We should have done this. If we wouldn't have done this, none of this would [00:24:00] have happened. And so, not only as a provider, but as a NICU mom yourself, what encouragement would you give to moms who are just in that spiral of mom guilt for exposing their kids to illness?
Dr. Jess: Yes. So I would say it really is 100 percent not your fault. It's not accurate. , it will, you will feel , the frustration. But I think we're mislabeling it. Mom guilt because guilt means that you've done something wrong on purpose, like you're trying to hurt someone and you're like, you know, responsible for some type of crime.
Dr. Jess: And that doesn't fall under this purview because you're being a parent and you're trying to balance a lot of decisions and you can't know. , what is unavoidable is illness is what I want to say. Um, because I, you know, I have mom, so to say, Oh, , I feel guilty because my baby was born early and I was like, well, did you have the power to stop that?
Dr. Jess: And the answer is no. In a lot of cases, because we would have, you know, you're a good mom. You're already doing a lot of things to protect your child, but [00:25:00] also I think it's a reality that we're not in control of everything like, like you mentioned earlier, um, some people have to lead to go to work and so you're exposed to things and you could do your best to wash your hands and wear a mask or not wear a mask.
Dr. Jess: And, , it's so varied who will get sick when you probably have been around your, it's like 200 times before and they never got sick. And then just during this one increased incidents because now it is a season of it, right? then the likelihood is that they'll get sick. So I would say feel your feelings of like frustration about it.
Dr. Jess: Because like again, that's why I pointed out I still get mad when my kids get sick and I know it was going to happen there in school. Like, you know, they're, they're advancing in their life because then if you kept them from things, then you'll feel sad about that. Like, oh, I'm keeping them from interacting with their peers, you know, because we already worry about that too.
Dr. Jess: Like, are they going to be? Treated the same with their peers and developmentally growing and all the things right. [00:26:00] So we want them to have all the same experiences that we already feel like they've missed out on that we've missed out on. So I think it's gonna be a give and take in a lot of areas. So I always tell families to just denounce that thought when it comes.
Dr. Jess: You just can't even let it take root. You just have to have a conversation with yourself and say, you know what? I'm doing the best I can. I'm weighing the pros and cons of every decision, and I'm not in control of everything, but I can help my child, and I choose to still help my child at all times, because when they're like 15 and they get a cold, like, your mom guilt will be forever.
Dr. Jess: Like, , we will never not be without it, because they will get sick at some point. We've gotten sick. Like, we just have to look at ourselves, right? And so it's not to denounce that. It's not serious. Um, it's serious. I think anytime a child is sick, I've had term kids that get sick and things happen to them.
Dr. Jess: And so that wasn't a fact of prematurity, but it still was just their story, so to speak, you know? So I think you just Do your best. , be mindful to reduce [00:27:00] risk. So that's why I see a lot of families talk about setting boundaries when families are visiting and, you know, like, like their family members not understanding not to kiss the face.
Dr. Jess: And, you know, we can get into a whole thing about boundaries,
Ashley: mhm. Mhmm,
Dr. Jess: I always tell my families, you decide, especially like if they're married or partners or whatever, you decide between the two of you, what your rules are for your house. And you stand firm in that together because families will, you're a mom and And that family and his and her mom and that family, they all will come with their opinions.
Dr. Jess: And the reality is they all got to choose what they wanted to do when you were such kid, you know, and so families mean, well, like they just want to be a part of your experience, but that doesn't mean they have the right to enforce their will. Right. And so if you decide I'm not having visitors for the first two months, they're at home.
Dr. Jess: I think that's fair, or whatever decide, time you decide, but I want it to be out of strategy and not fear because you'll never [00:28:00] let go of that then like there'll be like again five or six and people be like we never saw that baby and they're five years old
Ashley: Mhmm,
Dr. Jess: so you know it's balancing it. , and everybody has that different place, right?
Dr. Jess: Where I feel, you know, this is the day I feel more comfortable. I just want them to get to this point. And it's no, it's no perfect walk in the park. It's like every day you got to take each day at a time, do your best, , have whatever rules. Be consistent about it. You know, with all your family members, don't pick or choose.
Dr. Jess: Say, Hey, this is for everybody. We're even practicing this. We're washing our hands. We're making sure we're limiting the places we go. Whatever your rules are, I think that that's the best you can do. I made sure people washed their hands and stuff, but I had limited people around me just by the mere fact that I was out of, um, I live, I'm from Louisiana, so I was in Georgia for training.
Dr. Jess: So I already didn't have a lot of family just because they didn't live here. So it kind of made it a little easier in that regard. I didn't have to like, try to keep a whole lot of people away, but he still had exposure to people [00:29:00] that were watching him and then I was going to see other kids in the hospital.
Dr. Jess: So I had to come home and try to do my best to be. Wash up, be clean. , but I just really, to be honest, like just tried to my best to trust God with that. Cause I was like, it's the best I can do, you know, is, is do my best. So that's what I would encourage them to do, in this instance.
Ashley: Yeah. For sure. Mhmm.
Martha: I love that idea of focusing on what is our operating from strategy and not fear. So, when those fears and that anxiety come up, you can say, okay, well, let's talk it out loud. What is a strategy? Cause you're not, we're going to have a hundred percent control, but even if it makes you feel like we have a path forward that can really be calming to
Dr. Jess: Yes, it sure is. I
Martha: Yeah.
Dr. Jess: love that. Yeah, and it's like a plan, like we're, cause then you say, okay, we did this plan and yes, it worked or we need to modify cause in general, I think an incubator is a perfect example of things will be out of your control, but you can control how you respond in a situation, right?
Dr. Jess: [00:30:00] And so I think it definitely teaches you resilience in that way.
Ashley: Yeah.
Martha: Yeah, the NICU is definitely a crash course in realizing that you have absolutely no control over anything your child does or will, you know what I mean? You literally just love them and do your best, but like there's just so much in life it's crazy, but it is helpful to think of that as a universal experience in a lot of ways.
Dr. Jess: Yeah, it is. I tell my families that whenever they have a baby, I'm like, well, this is a crash course into parenting because I can tell you, you'll want them. Hey baby, eat. Why you won't eat all your bottles today? You know, and you're like, they're looking at you like, dude.
Martha: No, thank you. Yeah,
Dr. Jess: Be glad with these two. I just had today.
Dr. Jess: Okay.
Martha: yeah, totally.
Ashley: I love it,
Dr. Jess: Yeah. Yeah.
Ashley: fun. Well, are there ways that moms can partner with their pediatricians to kind of feel better equipped? So, I love how you've been giving like these practical like questions that they can ask. [00:31:00] So, , how are ways that moms can partner with their pediatricians to have just the most proactive cold and flu season that they can?
Dr. Jess: I think one of the things is, , and I saw they have a new, , FDA approved shot for R. S. V. And so what I don't know about that. I know we had the, um, I'm trying to think the, uh, synergists because my son got that. So, you know, one, whenever your baby's going home, I would say it's best to choose a pediatrician if you can, that's familiar with taking care of infants who have been in the NICU.
Dr. Jess: Um, I went, even when I was in training. They were lessening and lessening the number of NICU rotations that a pediatric resident had to do. I actually did extra since I knew I wanted to do neonatology, but I think we're having a lot more newer graduates who are not as familiar with the things. And so I think it's just one, making sure that that office is built to support you.
Dr. Jess: [00:32:00] And then the other thing is communicating with them about like, what is their access? Like, Is there, do they have a nursing line? Do they have after hours, weekend hours, things like that. If you have questions or concerns about your baby, who can you call? Um, like I know here in Atlanta, they have some of the offices will have their own nursing line, but even the children's hospital, you can call them directly and get help.
Dr. Jess: from there. They've built in a nursing kind of triage thing. So I tell my families to know again, like you mentioned the strategy, have those numbers in your phone already ready to go. The other thing is when you make your first visit with them, ask them about what their, Tips are for themselves because we all, even though we all learned the same things, everybody have different strategies and different levels of concern about like when they would want to be called or when they think you should come to the office and things like that.
Dr. Jess: But I always tell my families, you're your child's best advocate. So if you are worried, you deserve the right to be educated and reassured, even [00:33:00] if it's not something that they think you should bring them in for. At least they know they're aware. Okay, so and so who was born at 32 weeks is having this going on.
Dr. Jess: That way they can tell you, okay, we'll do this and this, and let's follow up in a day or two. And that gives parents reassurance. Like, because what I tell families is sometimes you're early in the process. So the first fever they have, you may or may not have enough information to decide. Well, what could be going on, right?
Dr. Jess: Like they get one temperature, you're like. Okay, where's this going now? You may have. They may have had some symptoms ahead of time, like two or three days before, and then now they have a fever. You're like, Okay, that kind of maybe makes us think about different things again. Those details matter. So I tell families keep your little notebook and when something's going on, your kids make some notes and just notice what's happening.
Dr. Jess: What's been happening in the last few days. If there's been anything different around them and that way you can get that information or partnering with your pediatrician is more about understanding what that office is. Who that person is, what is their concern? Um, what is their experience? And then [00:34:00] how will they respond to you when you are concerned?
Dr. Jess: Right? Cause I tell people, if you don't feel like your office supports you find somewhere else, because you know what, you know, I wouldn't, I have thought that was something to be, that people would need to be worried about when I was all bright eyed and bushy tailed, wanting to become a doctor. But I have been out long enough to see that there are various levels of, uh, engagement between office and their, and their patients, you know, and, and, and unfortunately, but it's true, um, some things I've heard parents say a patient sound like.
Dr. Jess: The doctor did that or didn't help you with that. You know, I'm like, oh, my goodness. So I know it's true, you know, and so it's unfortunate, but it's true. So that's why I tell parents, you're the best African. If you have to fight, if you have to get a second opinion, you do that because at the end of the day, you're the one that's going to be living with the outcome of that experience.
Dr. Jess: And you deserve to be as reassured and supported as you need. So, um, that, that is what I would say, know [00:35:00] your emergency phone numbers. Know what that office can offer you, and then just you build in some of the tips that I've shared about taking note of the details, knowing, being prepared with what your child's experience was, whatever illnesses they are currently still dealing with, right?
Dr. Jess: Like, you having all your information, knowing it better than the doctors, um, is actually going to help you help your child the best.
Ashley: Right. I love that. So practical and good.
Martha: yeah, for sure. I didn't realize with our new pediatrician, it's so wonderful. We have, um, access to something called virtual 24 seven. So there's like all these different services now. Cause my kid, she got pinkeye last week, really cute. It looked really cute on her. Um, and so like, I was like, I. Do not want to take her out of this house.
Martha: I do not want to throw her in her car seat. She was literally like, I don't want to go to the doctor. And we got her in within like an hour through this thing. It was so wonderful. So quick. [00:36:00] And so knowing the logistics of what your insurance offers, like if you they have. If you can do something, you know, a lot of places are using Epic MyChart now, so you can do messaging, send pictures, and all those things.
Martha: It makes your life logistically easier too, and it's a way to communicate. So that is something I never thought about before. Ask when you're kind of quote unquote interviewing with a pediatrician to try and figure out what works for you. That makes
Martha: so much sense.
Dr. Jess: it does. It's like I tell people it's like any other relationship. If it don't work, get out
Martha: Yep.
Ashley: That's the, that's the quote from this. If it don't work, get out.
Dr. Jess: now because people feel guilty and there will be struggling and struggling. And I'm like, the sooner you do it, the less history that has to be like redone, you know, and again, it's not, I'm not throwing shade. I'm not trying to throw shade, but I am working in reality because every, every people, you know, just like, um, different personalities match.
Dr. Jess: So, you know, word of mouth like I may love this person and I may have a friend [00:37:00] that's like, yeah, we didn't really get on well, you know, but it may depend on our personalities. Our needs may be different than, you know, you might be someone who's a little bit more attentive. And so that's why they have. You know, that's why you can choose.
Dr. Jess: You know, you have the power of choice in most cases. And so, um, I just want families to feel empowered and that, and that, and that's one of the things that are not a NICU families will share is that they feel like a lot of power has been taken from them. Right? Like from the onset, so many other people are responsible for your child right away versus you just taking them home within a day or two and being able to start your journey.
Dr. Jess: And so it's, we need to empower our families. More and it's through education and it's through support and it's through just being real about hey This is your baby at the end of the day. And so you take ownership of that advocacy for
Ashley: mm hmm, yeah.
Martha: Yeah. Don't, don't be like my mom who stayed with a hairdresser for 12 years, even though she hated [00:38:00] it. Don't be a Mary.
Dr. Jess: Mary gonna come for you
Martha: Yeah. She's like, she, you know, the only reason she broke up with her cause she, my mom moved out of town. That's the only way. So don't pull a Mary. pull a Dr. Jess. Okay.
Dr. Jess: Look I changed my pediatrician I changed my pediatrician they're a part of it, you know I've changed my pediatrician like three times the first time is because I moved Right. That makes more sense. I was like, I'm not going to be driving way over there. And then the second time it was because we just didn't agree.
Dr. Jess: And I was like, I don't have to, I don't have to deal with this. So I actually went to a patient, uh, a pediatrician, some of my patients was going to, they raved about him. I was like, well, I'm gonna jump ship too
Ashley: Yeah.
Dr. Jess: there. And it's been good ever since.
Ashley: Yeah. Oh, I love it. I think it's so important, too, in that interview process to, like you said, see how they evaluate your concerns and if they kind of gaslight you or, you know, kind of go, well, that's not what it [00:39:00] is. Or even, I've had providers that just wouldn't even give me the time of day, right? Like I had a concern and they were like, that's not what it is.
Ashley: And I was like, even if it isn't, I think there's a better way. to respond to my concerns. And so that interview process can be like a really good testing ground for like, okay, how are they going to respond when I'm calling in the middle of the night or when I actually have a genuine concern? And
Dr. Jess: I agree.
Ashley: permission to break up if it's not right is really, really
Martha: Yeah.
Dr. Jess: it's true. Because, you know, people feel beholden to, you know, and I know it could be a lot of a hassle and it's something you would just hope you wouldn't have to do, right? Like, why do I have to ask people to do something that they can't Essentially said that they wanted to do right. Do no harm and help me and my child and things like that, right?
Dr. Jess: As physicians. But, um, you know, we were dealing with a lot in this health care landscape anyway, right? And burnout. And it's just a lot of things that people are going through. And, you know, I just try to remind myself every day of why I do what I do. And it's important that self awareness and that [00:40:00] reflection time for sure.
Dr. Jess: But,, when a patient brings something to me, even if I don't think that's what it is, I explain why, because they need to understand what you are looking for. Like, okay, well, I don't think it's reflux because of this, but this is when I would think it is.
Dr. Jess: And so I always tell my families, if somebody tells you. It's I tell this to my family, my own family, like when they go to the doctor, they're going to the doctor about something serious. I say, well, if they decide not to do this, I try to give them a heads up of what I think they should do, right? If they decide not to do this scan, ask them why they're not doing it.
Dr. Jess: And when would they consider it? So that way you educate you. And then that gives you some reassurance that, okay, well, I'm not Yeah, that's true. I'm not exhibiting that symptom or I'm not doing that. So instead of because otherwise it does feel like a brush off, like, well, well, how do I know that they don't that they don't need to be doing this ultrasound right now?
Dr. Jess: Okay, well, I'm not doing this ultrasound because I'm actually looking for this and this is the actual test. But we will get an ultrasound if I see this and then that helps people and they [00:41:00] feel that it builds that trust, which is so important in a relationship.
Ashley: Yeah, absolutely. And often times as NICU parents, we're so exhausted of like the medical advocacy that we do on a daily basis, so having like a pediatrician that's willing to carry that load with you is
Dr. Jess: Yes, it is. It's so
Ashley: really exhausting to carry
Dr. Jess: It is. It is. And some, and some kids are diagnosed with like 30 things and you're like, Oh my Lord, you know, and, and, and the, the moms are just under the weight of, well, this ever be okay. You know? And, and again, like I said, I, I feel like I was empathetic to that beforehand because I used to always get fussed at in residency because I would be taking so long in the appointments, but I'd be like, well, the mom had a concern about this.
Dr. Jess: So I had to address it. But, um, they'd be like, get out that room. They go. But, um,
Dr. Jess: but, but I became, I became even more aware of it after I had my own child and saw how my own appointments were so long and I'm like, you know, and I, my pediatrician [00:42:00] didn't rush me and, and things like that. You know, people say, Oh, well, you were a doctor and that's not true.
Dr. Jess: I still had a, you know, that's why I said I had to change. We should do. I had a disagreement with someone and we were both doctors, but I didn't feel like she was even understanding where I was coming from in my situation. Right. So I was like, okay, it's time to change course. So that's why I just try to be authentic.
Dr. Jess: Um, and I think it's just having that awareness and thinking of families. It's just, you have to be intentional about it. You really do.
Ashley: for sure. So good. Well, maybe then it's kind of like a closing thought. We always like to ask, um, our specialists and guests on the podcast of what encouragement they would offer NICU families and So, Dr. Jess, for moms that are entering into cold and flu season, feeling especially anxious and fearful, maybe it's their first cold and flu season or their fourth or fifth cold and flu season, what encouragement and words of hope would you offer them?
Dr. Jess: I would say, [00:43:00] Hey, you have many, many families that have been through this. So you are not alone. So, , decide how you want to protect your home, you know, , decide your rules around visiting. , if people have had prior illness. And stand your ground with it and be encouraged that everyone has, has to set the boundaries that they feel comfortable with and don't feel any source of judgment for it.
Dr. Jess: And just know, , be a part of a community. I think this is a good time to be a part of a community. So you all can, we all can whine and cry together
Ashley: Mm
Dr. Jess: Cold and flu season because, you know, we, we all got to be like upset about it, you know?
Martha: Yeah.
Ashley: It's
Dr. Jess: we can we can be mad together like ain't this some stuff
Martha: Yeah. Yep. You're gonna be like, my child has been to three weeks out of the only, I've spent one week out of the first
Dr. Jess: yes,
Martha: Yeah.
Dr. Jess: and then even have a competition about hey whose kid has been out longest
Martha: Mm hmm.
Dr. Jess: But then but then seriously, you'll have the people that can say [00:44:00] hey, you know when you want to come and rant about The mom or the sister in law of the aunt who still tried to press on that boundary. You'll have a, a gang of mamas mad with you.
Dr. Jess: Like tell her X, Y, and Z. I love seeing it. I'd be like, yes,
Martha: would love to know what X, Y, and Z actually is translated.
Dr. Jess: look, look, I'm trying to remain professional.
Martha: yes. Oh, yeah. That's so funny.
Dr. Jess: But, I'm a mama bear about my patients and the mamas to like, I'm a mama bear for my kids. I'm a mama bear for my patients and their mamas. Like, I really don't like any mistreatment. I'm really fierce about that at the hospital.
Dr. Jess: I'm like, okay, so what if they got crazy? Maybe they had a reason. Maybe you should say, Hey, I understand why you're upset right now. Tell me more about that. How can we help you just to. We escalate, right? Because these moms are scared and they're just trying to make the best decision they can. So stop taking everything personal.
Dr. Jess: I have a message [00:45:00] for the providers listening to this too. Don't take everything personal, like say, okay, what is this family going through and how can I help them? That's how we can help each other best.
Martha: Yeah.
Martha: That's so true. Yeah. Oh, that's it. You're such a,
Ashley: so fun.
Martha: this, you're such a, I was going to say a bright spot of sunlight. I,
Martha: that's not correct.
Ashley: I, was gonna say bright light, but
Martha: you're a bright light. I'm sorry. I'm so tired. I'm just so hungry. And
Dr. Jess: okay, I can be a bright spot of
Martha: sunlight just a bit. Sorry
Ashley: really good compliments over here, clearly.
Dr. Jess: Well, you know what's funny? You know, it's funny at the hospital, they actually call me sunshine when I come in. They be
Dr. Jess: like, hello
Martha: I believe
Ashley: that's sweet. That's
Martha: I believe that. Oh, I, how would I, I would have loved to see you at rounds. That would have been so fun.
Ashley: I
Dr. Jess: yeah, we, we, you know, we have our, our good moments and then I love like the things that the babies do like babies have personalities, okay, these little thingies, they'd be putting fingers [00:46:00] places they shouldn't and just you'd be like, are you flipping me off right now? Like, what's happening here?
Martha: Yep. Yep. Oh man. Lots of funny things happen in those little incubators.
Dr. Jess: They do, and they be trying to like, crawl their way
Ashley: Oh
Martha: my
Martha: God.
Ashley: Oh,
Dr. Jess: where were you going? Like, where you was going? They was trying to break out.
Martha: Oh yeah, a hundred percent. They're trying to do that. It's like a WWE match in
Dr. Jess: Yep.
Martha: octopus things. It's like so crazy.
Dr. Jess: Yeah. Yeah. And that's what you have to do. It's hard moments. And you know what made me kind of deal with my experience. And then I know you guys have to wrap up, but it's hard moments and good moments. And we just have to say, you know what? We're going to take them as they come. And we're going to, we're going to still emerge victorious despite it.
Dr. Jess: You
Ashley: Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Jess: Mm
Ashley: Well, and I think there's a lot of hope in this episode, just that you are a 10 year veteran NICU mom. I mean, like, that's a lot of years under your belt of healing and growth and you know, I think for moms that are [00:47:00] just out of the NICU or moms like Martha and I who are on like four and five year post NICU, like seeing moms that are 10 years out and are laughing
Dr. Jess: Yes.
Ashley: can like talk about their experiences with this like joy is like, it's very hopeful.
Ashley: And so I
Martha: And your skin looks great.
Ashley: your skin looks great, honestly, also, you are your son's twin. Every time you smile, I'm like, oh, there's her son. Like, literally, you guys are identical. It's so sweet.
Martha: that? Aw.
Dr. Jess: are. We are. We are. That's so funny. That is. Oh, he's my mini me in many ways.
Martha: Yeah. Oh, that's so
Ashley: I love it.
Dr. Jess: You know what? That's on one of my recent posts. I put like, you know, he still has like, you know, working with fine motor, like the way he twists his caps or things. You can kind of see it there, but you know what? I decided that we don't have to make everything mean. Something bad or sometimes some things just are
Ashley: Mm hmm.
Dr. Jess: and look at what else he's come. He's playing soccer. He's like, he was in the top of his class in fourth grade last year. And so [00:48:00] I always encourage my family. It's like that nature nurture piece is so good. So like still read to your, be reading to your babies and challenging them. Don't. Sometimes we say because they're NICU babies.
Dr. Jess: Oh, well, they can't do this. Well, let's see. They actually might surprise you, right? And so when I put that in my post, like when I started focusing on what I could do to help him, not all the ways I thought I was failing him. It really made the difference. So that's what that's one other thing. I would say to encourage moms, like do what you can.
Ashley: Right. So good.
Martha: And we'll definitely make sure, just, you have so much wisdom in every post that you share, every video. So everyone check out the, the links for Mom and Me MD and to follow along with Dr. Jess and, and all of her wisdom. 'cause the, I'm sure there's, there's so much practical advice in there too.
Martha: Um, as long as, as, as also, um, bright spots of sunlight. Sorry, I'm
Ashley: I think it was bright lights of sun or something like that.
Martha: sprite, sprite. [00:49:00] A gear art, a glass of sprite. I am literally, Ashley does it a lot. Ashley's, she's, I will be banned from the podcast after this. I'm so sorry.
Ashley: I do need to put together a blooper episode though, because there are, there have been some gems of things.
Dr. Jess: be good. Yes. Maybe it could be like your end of the year, like roundup, like, like, like in that last week of December, like here, release them.
Ashley: a little blooper.
Dr. Jess: they can be like little moments of joy, like the 12 days of Christmas,
Ashley: There you go.
Martha: you go. There you go.
Ashley: You may have given us a finale episode, Dr. Jess. That was
Dr. Jess: look, I'm full of inspiration, you know,
Martha: Yes.
Dr. Jess: full of inspiration.
Ashley: I love it. Well, this has been so much fun. Um, I, I know it's been really fun to connect with you on social media, but to put a face to the account and to just have a chance to have a conversation with you has been so much fun. And to celebrate your son's birthday on the podcast today is so fun. Um, [00:50:00] so to all of our moms listening we just want to affirm your concerns and your anxious thoughts. And just to remind you that you're not alone.
Ashley: Cold and flu season does come with its own set of fears and worries. And it's just overwhelming. So know that if you're feeling that, you're not making it up. It is really challenging and it's hard to see your baby sick, especially after all you've gone through already. So we want this episode to provide those practical tips of, okay, where do we go from here?
Ashley: If we have a fever, if we have a sniffle, if we have upset stomach, where do we go from here? And to also remind you that there are providers and pediatricians out there who long to partner with you and help carry the load of what it means to be a medical mama and so Like Dr. Jess said, if you're seeing a provider that it just isn't a right fit or you're feeling gaslit, find a new one.
Ashley: We truly believe that there are people out there who long to partner with you and who have , your child's best interest at heart. And so Dr. Jess, thank you for the work that you do. Thank you for sharing your [00:51:00] experience. Um, it's always such a gift to connect with providers who understand what it means to be an NICU parent and who go into their practice with that at heart.
Ashley: And so thank you for the work that you do. Thank you for bringing joy to sometimes a really hard and difficult topic. And, , we will definitely make sure to link your resources so that more moms can connect with you. So thank you so much for being here. And mamas, we will connect with you next week.
Outro: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of the Dear NICU Mama Podcast. If you loved this episode, we'd be so grateful for a review on any of the podcast platforms. And we'd love to continue connecting with you via our social media pages or a private Facebook group. And ultimately, my Nicky Mama, welcome to the sisterhood.
