S7 Ep7 Transcription

Season 7 Ep 7
•• Please note that this is a computer generated transcript and there are potential errors.

Let's Talk About "Spooky Thoughts" Replay with Natalie Reiter

Intro: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Dear NICU Mama podcast. Our mission is to connect the past and the present NICU mom by bringing them out of isolation and into a sisterhood of women who can stand alongside each other as we heal and grow both in and out of the NICU. Our hope is that through interviews with trauma informed medical and maternal mental health experts and vulnerable stories from NICU mamas themselves, That you would feel connected to the dear NICU mama sisterhood around the world. So whether your NICU journey was 50 years ago, or whether you find yourself in the NICU today, we hope that this podcast reminds you that you are not alone.

Ashley: Hi beautiful mamas, it's Ashley here, co host of the Dear Nicky Mama podcast, and today's episode is a really special one and a really dear one to us, as we are actually sharing a replay episode that we recorded with Natalie Ryder of Prairieland Counseling last year, and we are really excited to have [00:01:00] this conversation because we know that Scary thoughts, aka intrusive thoughts, start in the NICU and they often come home with us. And so we have a really beautiful, gentle conversation with Natalie on how to process these thoughts, how to stop these thoughts, and really how to move forward in our day without getting trapped by these thoughts. So being that we are in quote spooky season and many of us are gearing up for Halloween. We wanted to share this episode as a refresher because I know for us, it's been incredibly valuable information. So without further ado, here's the episode. We hope you have a wonderful Halloween and we'll catch you guys back next week. Love you all.

Martha: Hi friends, and welcome back to the Dear NICU Mama podcast hosted by me.

I'm Martha and me, Ashley, we're all just doing our best. We're all just doing our best. I'm at this point in the fall where, but where my, my core, my trunk is really hot, but my fingers and toes are really cold. So that's [00:02:00] the type of fall we're in right now.

Ashley: Do you think that might be because you live in a cozy cottage?

Martha: I do live in a cozy cottage and right now I'm looking out and the trees are turning colors and I can see the lake twinkling in the distance and it's a dream, even though I have. So I would be, I am such a great target for murderers. So come get me. Anyway. Um, well, sometimes, you know, on this podcast, we have the opportunity to interview moms like yourselves, parents from the NICU about their experiences and other times we get the unique pleasure of interviewing experts in the fields of neonatology and. Obstetrics and maternal mental health. And that is who we have today. We have our most frequent guest in Dear Nekoma podcast history, Natalie Ryder of Prairieland Counseling LLC. I always put the LLC in there.

Natalie: I like that. Thank you for using the official title. Woo. Woo. Well, thank you for having me. I feel so honored to be your [00:03:00] most frequent guest, and I love your guys podcast, and I just love being on here, so.

Ashley: Oh, we do, too. And it speaks so highly of you, too, Natalie, and the culture that you've created at Prairielands, because we also had the opportunity to have your colleague, Jessica Hotchkiss, on. Oh, she was awesome, yeah. And she also brought just the most beautiful wisdom with so much compassion, and it was like... After the episode, we were like, of course she would have a colleague like Jessica on her team. Like, just, true angel. You have just facilitated such a beautiful team culture, and it's really a gift to have you as a provider.

Natalie: Well, thank you. And Jessica, yeah, Jessica is amazing. Like, she is wow worthy. I feel, like, so honored that she wants to I don't even think about working with me and so, yeah, no, she's just amazing.

Ashley: No, we love Prairieland. We're so grateful for you. Every time we have you on the podcast, I know, speaking for the both of us, we text each other afterwards and we're like, first of all, she's the wisest person on the planet and we just feel a lot, a lot less crazy, a lot more [00:04:00] quote normal. We feel like we're like, oh, okay, this actually makes sense. I can digest this. Like we're not, you know. We're not all up here. Like it's in the heart now too. And so thank you so much for making time to be on here today. And from the sisterhood as a whole, I know your episodes are always so well received. So it really means a lot that you're taking time to, to connect with us again.

Martha: Thank you. You are to the Journey to Mama podcast as Steve Martin is to SNL. Ooh. Yeah. There you go. Um, I, I'm so glad that you're back. It's fantastic. I would highly recommend anybody who's listening right now to search Natalie's name in our podcast history because I think one of the top episodes we hear about all the time is the one you did about intimacy after NICU trauma.

It is so good. I had so many eye opening, um, kind of, uh, turns during that episode, so thank you so much. And I can expect only that and more today. Well, let's hope. Let's hope. What are we talking [00:05:00] about today, Ashley? We are talking about spooky thoughts because it's spooky season. No, today we are really excited.

Ashley: We've kind of had this idea, um, as a podcast episode for years, maybe I will say, and we kind of wanted to time it with Halloween and the turning of the season with fall and talk about spooky thoughts, which Martha, can you explain what's spooky thoughts are. Yes. I, uh, I think the clinical terminology is intrusive thoughts, but for today's, uh, podcast, we're talking about spooky thoughts as the thoughts that we don't want.

They're unwanted and they pop into our heads. I could list off some right now, but I think I'll stop. stop myself before I do that. Um, but I think particularly for our, our NICU families, it's those ones about, oh gosh, hygiene and health and sleep and your worthiness as a parent, all of those above. I think we all can identify as those things that pop into our head.

So we really wanted [00:06:00] to talk about that, um, because understanding that those. Uh, have a name and those, like, are not part of you is such a huge part of, of healing, I think. So, yeah.

Martha: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think once you, you know, in the NICU, when you kind of have that experience where you nearly lose your child or you're constantly in that fight or flight, you come home and those, it's not like those fears and worries necessarily just go away. In fact, sometimes they're exasperated and you feel them even more because now you don't have the safety of what you had before and so I'm excited to, like you said, name them and also hopefully have some tools of, okay, what can we do when we experience them?

What is like a next gentle step that we can do to get ourselves out of those sticky, spooky thoughts? So, Natalie, since you're the professional and we're two yahoos with microphones, can you, actually you're not a yahoo, you're the most gorgeous person I've ever met, but Natalie, could you tell us how you define intrusive spooky thoughts [00:07:00] for your clients?

Natalie: Yeah. So, you know, like you said, like kind of like the clinical term can be like intrusive thoughts or just automatic thoughts. And I think, you know, something that I really hope people can take away, particularly from this podcast is like you said, that, you know, these thoughts are just thoughts. You know, they're distressing, you know, not to say that they are not, but you know, thoughts generate from places that we can't control and so they will just pop up.

And my favorite analogy is like waves in the ocean, they're just always there, you know, we don't necessarily control our thoughts, but we do control how we react to them. And so intrusive thoughts or spooky thoughts or scary thoughts, however you kind of want to think about them, you know, are just thoughts that pop up and they occur to almost everyone.

Um, I'm going to be. When I, if I'm ever quoting like a statistic or a study or something like that, it came from this really great book, uh, called [00:08:00] Dropping the Baby and Other Scary Thoughts by Karen Kleinman. Um, and so in one study it showed that 91 percent of moms and 88 percent of dads experienced scary intrusive thoughts.

So we're talking about basically all parents are going to experience some sort of spooky or scary or intrusive thought at some point. And so again, I think really kind of You know, normalizing or naturalizing, like this is a natural occurrence. It's part of the thing that helps us, you know, take care and keep safe of our kiddos.

Um, and so intrusive thoughts really are just the thoughts that pop up that we just really don't like.

Martha: Sorry. I feel like just hearing it said out loud again, it makes you think about, Oh yeah, that's right. Because I think that you dropping the baby is such a good. Um, one that you think about because how many of us, the first time you [00:09:00] hold a baby, I'm like, Oh my God, don't drop this baby. Don't do it. Oh my gosh.

Am I going to do it? Am I going to do it? And that's, that was such a clear, um, uh, illustration for me to understand what one is and identify it in my, in myself too. Yeah. So, you've already kind of described this, but who typically experiences intrusive thoughts? And pretty much, you said, you know, most people, every person.

Natalie: Yeah, exactly. Most people experience intrusive thoughts and, you know, it might be like, you know, as intrusive as, you know, when we think about like littles, like a lot of them can be, like, Like, safety based, some of them can be hygiene based, some of them can be, you know, fear based or action based. There's a lot of different types of kind of these intrusive thoughts, but again, they kind of come out of nowhere. Um, and so, Just again, kind of just like this is just a natural occurrence that happens. [00:10:00] It's not an abnormal experience. You're not crazy, and I'm quoting here, you know, if you experience thoughts like these.

Ashley: Would you still consider it an intrusive thought if it's like slightly delayed? So for example, let's say that you were holding a baby all day And you didn't have those intrusive thoughts and then you're laying in bed I'm speaking from personal experience here See if you can't tell but you're laying in bed and you're like what if I would have dropped that baby? What if this would happen? What if this you know? Is that the same thing as an intrusive thought or is that more of like an anxious thought? Is there a difference?

Natalie: You know, I think like the difference is a very like Nuanced shade of grey. Like, the thought itself is going to come in kind of from out of nowhere. Where if you're just laying in bed and then all of a sudden it's like, What if I drop the baby? Right. You know, that's intrusive. You know, and then we tend, and then like, What if I drop the baby? This could have happened. And then if we start playing like the what if game, You know, the anxious thoughts that follow that.

You know, that rumination [00:11:00] piece. And you know, one of the things that we talk about, because one of the things I think with spooky thoughts is this idea that I am going to actually follow through. With something like, you know, there are some of the genre, like, like dropping the baby is like, you know, what if I go down the stairs and I drop the baby down the stairs or thoughts of what like causing like intentional harm?

Like, what if I take this pillow and smother the baby or, you know, what if I'm like fall and I trip in the kitchen and the baby gets hurt by a knife or something like that again, very intrusive thoughts. But what's interesting about intrusive thoughts is that the thought itself is not as powerful as the attention that we give it.

We feel more anxious the more attention that we give the thought. And so that distress that we experience actually makes it so that we are less likely to follow through on like a scary thought or [00:12:00] scary act that we're thinking about. And these are called ego dystonic thoughts. So, it means that they're distressing to the core of who we are, which means that we are not likely to follow through on them.

Just like somebody, you know, who maybe has OCD, who fears, like, they accidentally hit somebody, you know, driving on the street, so they might circle the street 10 or 20 times, that's the compulsion piece, you know, makes them actually, You know, at a lower likelihood of accidentally hitting somebody because they have this feeling of being tense and on edge.

DNM: Does that make sense?

Ashley: Yeah. Yeah, and would you say that intrusive thoughts So, kind of going back to, like, the motherhood piece, would you say that intrusive thoughts are more common in, like, those postpartum stages or in, like, when in pregnancy or do they kind of, is there really no, like, you know, rhyme or reason for when they would occur?

Natalie: I think that they tend to be a little bit more, um, [00:13:00] common in the postpartum and pregnancy stage in the sense that. The thoughts that people tend to have often are, are causing higher levels of distress. And so, kind of a, This episode might be kind of hard just because, like, some of the thoughts that we talk about that are intrusive are really kind of scary thoughts, like the thought of, like, I'm going to take the pillow and smother my baby, like, we're not going to maybe have that type of thought, maybe, like, obviously, like, pre pregnancy or, you know, something kind of like that, but, you know, once we have it and we're already heightened, you know, we're already sleep deprived, you know, we're already, um, you know, You know, disconnected from some of our social connections makes it likely so that those thoughts that we maybe normally would be like, well, that's weird.

Okay. I'm just going to kind of brush that off, make us more likely to react to it, which makes it more distressing. Yeah. In a way, though, I find it [00:14:00] reassuring that it's actually A sign that you are the exact opposite of that thought that having the thought actually means that your understanding of right and wrong is really strong and your sense and the ability to defend and take care of your baby is really strong, too.

Martha: So that is a huge relief for me, too, to know that that's, um. That's in it because, you know, like you said, they kind of ebb and flow and change with your kids as well, like this is parenting essentially at a certain level, but yeah.

Natalie: Yeah. There's, there's absolutely like research has shown that there's absolutely no correlation between having this kind of scary thought and acting. Or creating an act on it.

Martha: So what are some common, you know, spooky or intrusive thoughts that you commonly hear or you might imagine that we would hear from a NICU parent specifically? I think you've covered some of the kind of the broad subject areas. And we probably could list off [00:15:00] 10 or 12 for you individually as well.

Natalie: Well, I think that's a great question. Like, kind of going back to you guys, what are the ones that you guys hear? You know, maybe your top, like, three or four that you tend to hear, you know, from your community.

Martha: I think for those that are in the NICU, especially because the babies are so fragile, a lot of it is, Oh, if I, um, I'm going to, what if I were to move this car back, this, this wire by accident, right?

Or if I, again, if I drop the baby or what if I were to sneeze, I mean, seriously that on, on the baby, that's definitely one piece too. Um, What if I didn't wash my hands and I brought in the flu and then my baby died? Right. You know, like you go to like, yeah, totally. And at home, I think, you know, it could be, I think about our moms who are medically complex, you know, um, what if I were to fall asleep and, um, miss the alarming of their, of [00:16:00] their machine, right.

Um, or, uh, a lot of times washing, washing things enough. Hygiene is huge. Um, for sure. Like all those different types of things. Um, And I think to some of those intrusive thoughts are about shame of self, right? Like, um, the, the ones that pop up, like, um, what if the baby's better off without me? Right. That type of thing.

They're kind of layers into kind of the depression and the worries. And I mean, I feel like I had intrusive thoughts a lot about like the police coming and be like, What if I was arrested? You know what I mean? This is, it sounds, it sounds crazy, but that's why we're going to the head of the spooky thoughts because they are so opposite of who you are and the life that you're living right at that moment.

know one mom has shared, you know, because we know so many intricacies of our babies, like medical history. One mom said one intrusive thought she has is what if I got in a car crash and died and nobody knew how to take care of them. You know, like, you [00:17:00] have those intrusive thoughts, too, of, like, you being that primary caregiver.

What if something happened to me and then my baby suffered because I got in a car crash? You know, and that kind of thing. Yeah. Um. And I know that's one that I think we all may be experienced or is in the back of our heads or different things like that. You know what I'm noticing? Every single sentence starts with, what if?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Natalie's looking at us like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, which is, it is super interesting too, because again, it's not based in the reality of what's happening in the moment. It's this thing flutters through your brain. And, um, And I think it can be really frustrating because Both in the NICU and out of the NICU, all you want to do is bond with your baby.

Natalie: Oh, yeah. And it feels like all that's preventing it is these spooky intrusive thoughts. And you, first of all, didn't get to have the newborn, first of all, newborn experience that you wanted to have, but now you're trying to and your brain just keeps having these intrusive thoughts that feel like it's preventing you [00:18:00] from fully bonding with your baby.

Ashley: Um, and so I know this isn't a question that we necessarily have on there, but And, you know, what encouragement or, or wisdom would you give to moms who are just trying to connect with their child, but feeling like their intrusive thoughts are getting in the way? You know, I think if they're ha, you know, if their intrusive thoughts are at a level of like it's preventing something, that it's getting in the way of something, then that's a great time to seek.

Natalie: You know, a professional opinion or, or just kind of consult, whether it be like with like your OB or your child's pediatrician, or, you know, a mental health professional, you know, like that's where we really kind of start to draw the line between, you know, perhaps like anxiety that everybody experiences and an anxiety disorder is like the level of distress and impact on functioning.

And so if you're telling me that, you know, you're not able to. to bond, or you're feeling like your bond is [00:19:00] impaired, then that might be something that, you know, you'd come see me about, and we'd, and we'd talk about it, and we'd, you know, kind of push through. But, you know, a lot about it, a lot about these intrusive thoughts is really kind of pushing through them.

Like you just kind of like labeling them and sometimes I refer to them as like sticky thoughts. Because the more that you get into it the stickier it becomes like kind of like caramel or taffy like it's just like and then you're just getting more and more stuck into the sticky thought and so When these spooky thoughts come up, you know, something that is, you know, generally helpful is to, you can kind of just like label it, Oh, I'm having a spooky thought.

I'm having a scary thought. I'm having an intrusive thought. I understand that this is distressing to me and yet I'm still going to cuddle with my baby. I'm still going to, you know, maybe I'll do some reality checking with my partner and being like, you know, you know, I don't have a cold, right? I haven't had any symptoms.

I can, you think it's okay, [00:20:00] you know, so we can do A little bit of that, but we don't want to necessarily get into like reassurance checking with it, but just doing a little bit of the reality checking. Like I don't have a cold, like, you know, I've washed my hands three times, you know, I've done X, Y, or Z, this is.

: The likelihood of this happening is very low.

One question off of that is, again, we have, as NICU parents, experienced, unfortunately, the worst of the worst when it comes to your nightmares of children being ill and sick and in critical care. So, how do you distinguish between a sticky thought, And a real thought, right? Um, well, I guess they're all real thoughts, but you know what I mean.

Yes. Something that would be of real concern. Well, I think, you know, um, and this kind of even kind of goes back to a little bit of kind of even like how we kind of dealt with some [00:21:00] anxiety around the pandemic. Of like, so, I've washed my hands three times. I've, you know, made sure that, you know, I don't have any cold symptoms.

You know, at this point, like What risk is higher, you know, the risk of me transmitting something to my baby or my risk of impeding my attachment to my child? You know, because the truth is, is that you, uh, with, you know, NICU, um, Littles, you know, and parents, you guys have experienced the worst of the worst and like the 1 percent or the half percent and, and things like that.

And so even though it's like the, the chance is very, we talk about the chance being kind of low, I can already hear the response of yes, but I, I've already lived that chance. I've already experienced that low chance. And so then we kind of go into the, you know, you've done everything that you can, there's nothing more to do.

Now we need to go through [00:22:00] and kind of push through that level, that last level of distress and engage in the thing that we want to engage in. And it sounds like that when it gets to that level where maybe it's, you're having the trouble discerning, then maybe that's when it is good to find a professional to process through.

Martha: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, because we can talk about, you know, like. Safety, because again, we don't want, you know, again, everything is, is so nuanced and fine lined between, you know, what is a, you know, reasonable safety guard and what is like an obsessive compulsive action or ritual. You know, and I think it varies so much from person to person, from diagnosis to diagnosis, you know, from little experience to little experience.

Um, and so I think, you know, talking to somebody and having it be personalized towards your experience is so [00:23:00] important.

Natalie: Yeah. Absolutely. I know, like, there's been times in some of our Um, episodes are just like our support groups where a mom will say, I'm so scared about this, and we'll say, it makes sense.

Why you're scared about this, but, and then there's this but of, yeah, working with a professional to, to acknowledge that fear, to know that that might, that may have been your reality in the past. And yet there's still hope to be able to push past that and engage with your child in a way that you're building that bond.

You're moving forward. We're not getting so into the weeds and those sticky thoughts, um, has always been so hope filled because yeah, it makes sense why we would fear these things. Yeah. What can we do, you know, for the next part? I love the word and because it validates so much. You know, like you have experienced the worst of the worst and we can still, you know, push through the distress and, and hold your baby at, at night, [00:24:00] you know, without going through like an entire sanitation thing.

You know, if that's appropriate, you know, you can experience your thing and still push through what you have. So we can honor your experience with the and, and still push forward.

Martha: I think one of the, the biggest things, like the biggest hurdles is, uh, you have these thoughts and maybe it's a newer experience for all the reasons you listed, right? The heightened experience of having a new child, of being postpartum, of going through a trauma, right? Right. Right. Um, you start to have these thoughts and our first instinct is I'm crazy and I should not tell anybody about this because they will think that I'm crazy and they will lock us me away.

Natalie: Right. When you, we, we've just identified that actually the majority of people have these, it's incredibly common. It's more common if you've gone through a traumatic experience. So how can we kind of. Overcome [00:25:00] the shame, you know, to get to that, that piece of, of sharing with somebody else, or is that maybe itself the answer?

No, I, well, I think, you know, unfortunately, there have been a lot of, and I think still continue to be a lot of really negative experiences in like the medical field about talking about these thoughts. Um, and so I think, you know, finding somebody who maybe has like the perinatal training, you know, um, who has some sort of background so they recognize that if you're having these thoughts, it doesn't mean it's going to happen, like you're going to act on them.

Those are two very distinctly different things. And there have been instances, you know, where like a CPS was called or, you know, Um, you know, higher levels of care were taken when maybe they didn't need to be taken and those are just, you know, failings of our medical system for moms and dads and, you know, just all parents that we are not [00:26:00] doing enough to really educate.

about what this experience really can look like. We, we just, we like to like just pat it, pat it dry and put it on a shelf and be like, we're just not going to talk about it a whole lot. But I think the more that we normalize the fact that, you know, almost everybody experiences these thoughts to some level and some degree, you know, especially with NICU experiences and the hypervigilance, those thoughts, you know, are very powerful and can cause high levels of distress, the more that we normalize that, the more that we just decrease shame.

You know, shame likes to hide in dark shadows, so the more that we shove it in a corner, the more that we don't talk about something, the more that we keep it inside and just harbor it, the bigger the shame monster grows.

Ashley: Yeah, and I know in my experience when I've been in like a safe environment where I can share some of the spooky thoughts that I've had, being able to speak them out loud and realize how maybe [00:27:00] irrational they are helps because sometimes when they just replay over and over in your head, they feel so normal.

You're like, Oh yeah, that could totally happen. That would be totally a real thing. And then I speak it out loud to someone who is safe and who can. Help me name those thoughts, and I'm like, wow, that was like very irrational, but when it was in my head, it felt so possible. And so I think when we give, find that safety to speak it out loud, it really like You know, it diminishes some of that shame because we can hear it out loud for the first time of, Oh, that's, that's not as, you know, possible as it sounds in my head.

Natalie: Yeah. And that's, you know, like again, when you speak things out loud, it changes the power dynamic of them. You know, like for some things, like when we say it out loud, we get very empowered about a thought, which is really great. And sometimes when we say it out loud, it, we are able to be like, Oh, wait a minute.

You know, like a really great analogy is like when you are sitting, when you're laying in bed and you're in the dark and you [00:28:00] see a shadow, you know, in the corner of your room, your mind races and you just don't know what it could be. But when you turn on the light, you realize it's a shirt on the back of a chair.

And so like the more that we're able to shine light to talk about, to just name, the more that we're just turning on lights and being like, Oh, that's a shirt on the back of a chair. Mhm.

And just like with anything, you know, Dear NICU Mama related or trauma healing related, community is essential to feeling that. Solidarity. Oh, it's not just me. Oh, I'm not the only one that has these thoughts. And so I hope to all moms listening that you, you hear that loud and clear that this is common, that you're not the only one, that you're not broken, that there are other women and men who experienced this as well, and you're not alone in these spooky thoughts.

Natalie: Yep. [00:29:00] Absolutely. You know, again, like, I can't, like, echo what you said, Ashley, enough, just that this is, this is a common experience and, you know, these thoughts are going to happen. What matters is how we react to them. That, and that's the thing that we have control of. We may not necessarily have control of these thoughts that kind of come in because they're like waves.

They just generate and they're there. But what matters is like how far into the ocean we go, how we react to the thought.

One might say that the thoughts aren't spooky, but the shame is, ooh, that's the real, the real monster in the jar. Am I right? Martha couldn't wait to share that . Yes, she told that one. She was ready to love that alone. I, I, uh, I think it's so true. It just like the, um, clarity when you throw the light of day on something like that, um, oh my gosh.

Martha: I've had that experience so many times when I [00:30:00] say something out loud, especially early on when I was sharing about, um. When JJ came home and I was having what, you know, what I lovingly refer to as my Sylvia Plath days, I remember telling that to someone and they were like, Oh, I totally had all of those thoughts.

Even when I heard first heard the name of that book, um, Karen Kleiman's book, dropping the baby. I remember thinking, Oh, other people have that thought too. It just never occurred to me that it was a common experience. And like you always say in the, uh, in the vein of self compassion, right. Understanding shared experience is what allows us to.

give like unlimited grace to ourselves because you know what you've already been through enough Nikki parents. You don't need to beat yourself up about this too. You know, you deserve love and support and peace for yourself. Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley: Yeah. Well, and not to put you on the spot, Natalie, I know we do this a lot on our episodes with you, but could we do a juggling routine? Yes. But could we do like a little, um, You know, maybe [00:31:00] like examples, so maybe I can name a spooky thought and then you could maybe give an example of how to process or name that thought. I know you talked about, oh, it's a shirt on the back of a chair, but if we give you like an example of like, you know, how can we process through that thought to maybe get past like the sticky part of the thought?

Natalie: Yeah, absolutely.

Ashley: Okay. So maybe let's just use that example of, you know, dropping the baby or sleeping through the alarm maybe. You know, what if I slept through the alarm, didn't count the breaths tonight, and something terrible happened?

Natalie: Okay. So, you know, what is the likelihood of that happening? How many times have you slept through the alarm before?

None. None. Okay. So, so far we have 100 percent or like a, you know, a perfect batting average that we will wake up to the alarm. So, what we're going to do is just reassure ourselves with the fact that I have not slept through the alarm yet. And so I'm going to [00:32:00] keep my batting average, kind of keep it going, and I'm just going to kind of label this as an anxious thought and go ahead and move on.

Ashley: I think such, that's so beautiful, like round of applause. Yeah. But I also think that I love what you said the, the move on piece because it, um, gives you permission to kind of move on to the next thing and it doesn't need to be. Um, whatever comes next can be something that brings you joy and comfort too.

Natalie: I, sometimes I, I know that there's this feeling like we need to like flagellate ourselves for having had gone through this experience at all, but then you can go and do something that is good. Maybe you can go and play with your baby or drink some water for God's sakes, or, you know, um, make sure that you have a good meal.

It might be a clue that you can do something for yourself then. That makes you feel comfortable. Well, and that's exactly it, is that I think, you know, instead of, you know, viewing these scary thoughts as the [00:33:00] fire, viewing these scary thoughts as the smoke from the fire, you know, these scary thoughts are really just indicators that you're probably feeling pretty anxious and some sort of need is not being met.

I'm not sleeping, I'm not feeling connected, I haven't eaten very well, I'm not taking care of myself, you know, I need to go and do some, one of these things, and I'm sorry, I'm laughing because it's so, it's like very true. I'm like, oh yeah!

Oh boy, so funny. Yeah. But like, this is just an indicator. Apparently I'm all about like the analogies this episode. I'm all like smoke waves. You go Steve Martin. But you know, I, because I really like this one though, because like, it really is not necessarily like the thing that's actually causing the distress is not that the, I mean, the thought causes the distress, but usually it's an indicator that I'm not doing something else.

Ashley: One thing that's been, it sounds really [00:34:00] silly, but one thing that I've started to do very slowly is. If I catch an intrusive thought, and I do kind of that exercise where I call it what it is, and I say it's spooky, I move on. Telling someone that you love that you did that. Like, kind of allowing like a little moment of celebration.

I know I've done that with you, Martha. I've like, you'd be so proud of me, I had this thought, and I didn't like, ruminate on it for an hour. But just like, allowing yourself to have a moment of celebration of like, you know what, I did that. I didn't get stuck in that thought today. I just want to celebrate that with someone.

Has been kind of like a little win in my life of, okay, like I'm, I'm taking that active step forward. Doesn't happen every day, but when it does, sometimes I'll message someone that I love just to kind of get some of that camaraderie of, you did it.

Natalie: Way to go. Absolutely. Positively reinforce that behavior as much as you absolutely can.

Like I think, you know, getting a Like talking to somebody, getting a hell yeah, you know, getting a pat on the back, like [00:35:00] absolutely you should do that because it is hard, it is hard to change behavior. And so it is, as weird as it sounds, it is actually easier, or the path, I shouldn't say easier, is the path of least resistance to, to feed into the what if game.

You know, to like let our minds just run there. It takes a lot. To pull it back and to try to, to move on to something else. And so you absolutely should be congratulated, should be celebrated, you know, should just be proud of the work that you're doing. I'm so grateful that we live in this generation because there's like this amazing cohort of parents who are just like, I, I'm going to do the hard thing and I'm going to take care of myself.

Martha: Um, and that's better for our kids, right? Mm hmm. Um, I'm, oh gosh, anyway, I'm thinking of all the boomers I know and love [00:36:00] right now. Um, I think the, um, the last question I have, unless you have anything else, Ash? No. The last question is, um, the big one, is does having intrusive thoughts make me a bad mom or a bad parent?

Natalie: Absolutely not. It just makes you a parent.

Martha: Well, that's great. That's like the most beautiful way you could have said that. That's the name of your book. Okay. Yeah, I'm getting to that. Yeah.

Natalie: Oh, man. We definitely encourage if you want to learn more about intrusive thoughts. Um, Karen Kleinman has founded, uh, the postpartum stress center probably like 30 years ago. She's awesome. And she has, um, Uh, dropping the baby, but also she had a book come out. That's like all of their incredible comics that they've posted on their website.

Martha Yes. Those are so cool. Actually. You're the one that first told me about those Natalie. They're amazing. [00:37:00] Um, it's little diagrams, these little comics of parents kind of talking to each other and they say something, you know, like, how are you doing today? And the mom, the new mom says, I'm fine. But then you see the thought bubble that has actually all of her running intrusive thoughts in it.

They're so powerful and cool. Um, I believe that book's called Good Moms Have Scary Thoughts, and it's fabulous. In fact, um, at our upcoming event for, um, Courage Lives Here, one of our speakers is Hilary Waller, who is, um, Karen Klyman's associate from the Postpartum Stress Center. So we're so jazzed about that.

Martha: Um, but. Honestly, Natalie, you are just the bee's knees and we are so grateful for you and our community and all the wisdom you have to share. Thank you for being a provider who gets it and also is always researching and striving to do more for the people you take care of. We appreciate you.

Natalia: I appreciate you guys. I just love being on this podcast, you know, um, so [00:38:00] I appreciate the work that you guys do to just support. Parents who have gone through such a unique experience, um, and are so deserving. of attention and, and acknowledgement of their courage. Mm.

Ashley: Beautiful. Well, I echo what Martha said, Natalie. Thank you so much for being here.

And to all of our NICU Mamas or NICU parents listening to this episode, we just hope that you feel encouraged and validated that you are not your thoughts. And like Natalie said, you are not a bad parent, you're a parent. These thoughts are normal. Um, I know it's frustrating. We also acknowledge the frustration of having these thoughts when you're in the midst of your healing and all you want to do is bond with your baby and it feels like you're having to do more work to battle these thoughts.

=We also just want to commend you for the healing that you're doing. And, um, just know that you're not alone. This healing journey is lifelong, but this [00:39:00] sisterhood is here for you, is rooting for you. And we see you as the remarkable mom that you are. So Nikimamons, we will be back next week. Um, we hope that this Halloween season has less spooky thoughts and more happy thoughts and more spooky candy.

So with that, we will be back next week with another episode, but thank you so much for being here with us today. You are loved.

Outro:
Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of the Dear Nikki Mama podcast. If you loved this episode, we'd be so grateful for a review on any of the podcast platforms.

And we'd love to continue connecting with you via our social media pages or our private Facebook group. And ultimately, NICU Mama, welcome to the sisterhood.